6 ms·

> (In Mice) Most important thing. A lot of people claim to have a gluten allergy. They have blood tests for that. As far as we are concerned, in humans, gluten

by zer8k 3y ago

> (In Mice) Most important thing. A lot of people claim to have a gluten allergy. They have blood tests for that. As far as we are concerned, in humans, gluten is not bad unless you have the allergy. If you think wheat is causing you problems the blood test is cheap and will tell you what you need to know. I am convinced otherwise people are mixing up cause and effect. Cutting out gluten from your life also cuts out a sizeable source of calories. Not overeating, weight loss, etc are all associated with lower inflammatory states. This would certainly explain the ambiguous "I feel better" from most people who claim removing gluten fixed their problems.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
This is the effect everyone claims when they try any diet. Even the faddiest of fad diets might be the first time in decades they've eaten consciously and, what do you know, they are losing weight when they aren't on autopilot filling their gullet. But the weight loss didn't come from a calorie deficit, of course. It came from some magical interaction that seed oils / gluten / MSG / vegetables were having in their body.
wnolens 3y ago
Strongly disagree here. You're denying that the constituents of food matter and that it's all calories. No one is "allergic" to sugar but it has an effect on the body. Cutting out sugar is (or at least FEELS) different than cutting out the same number of calories in vegetables or meat. There's no (known/convenient) blood test for so many dietary idiosyncrasies.
- zer8k 3y ago
  The celiac disease test covers most cases of gluten sensitivity. Of the non-celiac gluten sensitive people the rest of them can be found (trivially) with in-office tests at a gastroenterologist. Most gluten containing products also contain simple carbohydrate. Could it be a reduction in insulin resistance? Possibly. Point being, there are tests for this. In fact, a GI can test for many (but probably not all) serious dietary problems.
  - OliverGilan 3y ago
    I am negative for the Celiac blood test (got tested three times) but I am absolutely allergic to gluten. Starting three years ago randomly I became allergic and severely ill for months - losing up to 30 lbs in a matter of a month - before isolating the problem to gluten. I have also on multiple occasions accidentally eaten gluten without realizing and immediately felt the symptoms. None of the tests I've taken show gluten as an allergen or problem in my body but cutting it out removes all my symptoms. Our tests are not nearly good enough and I suspect many people deal with chronic inflammation and other health issues due to food they can't eat and don't even realize
    - tmikaeld 3y ago
      I'm curious, what effects and allergies did you get?
  - alexcaza 3y ago
    This isn't exactly true. The blood test and biopsy can _sometimes_ find celiac disease, but it _cannot_ diagnose gluten intolerance/sensitivity. If you have an intolerance or sensitivity, the blood test will come back negative as your body doesn't produce antibodies indicative of celiac, and your villi remain intact, so the biopsy will show nothing. However, you can still have some incredibly unpleasant side-effects from eating gluten. Even in folks with celiac disease, it can go under the radar. If you've been eating a gluten free diet prior to the tests, the results can come back negative, but that doesn't mean you don't have it. Source: I have celiac disease, and it was a pain in the ass to get diagnosed.
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      It is insult to injury that the charity Coeliac UK is completely unwilling to assist those who are 'only' gluten intolerant, that is, those for whom the blood test comes back negative. At least here in Britain, the general attitude towards allergies and intorlerances has improved, but the majority of establishments still have no gluten-free menu, let alone an isolated coeliac-safe kitchen.
- imtringued 3y ago
  Nobody is allergic to sugar but sugar that reaches your large intestine will be absorbed by bacteria and cause uncomfortable bloating or constipation.
  - senectus1 3y ago
    see FODMAP Sugars in carbonated drinks, alcohol and fruits plus onions and garlic are all problematic for me
electrondood 3y ago
These people confuse an actual allergy with a sensitivity. Also, it's a pretty weak hypothesis to claim that everyone feels better when eliminating flour and other grains because they're no longer experiencing inflammation from overeating and being overweight.
beebmam 3y ago
I do not have the allergy. I also don't have Celiac disease. (Yes, I have been tested for these, presuming the tests are accurate) However I do have these symptoms after a few weeks of including wheat in my diet again: - serious muscle tightness, especially my chest and diaphragm/intercostals - joint soreness/pain, ankles/wrists/fingers - constipation - pimples on my shoulders and chest - occasional stuffy noses These symptoms mostly alleviate within a few weeks when I stop eating wheat. My doctor thinks it's probably some kind of "sensitivity". I don't really know what that means, but she said it's fine to stop eating wheat if that improves my symptoms. So I did. But it tastes so good that every several years I reintroduce it to my diet, and I end up regretting it as the symptoms come back. Have had this problem with wheat since I was a teenager. Started taking action about it as a young adult. I'm middle aged now.
- predictabl3 3y ago
  For me, the two that are so easy/obvious to me now that I've structured my diet dilligently... acne and joint pain/inflammation. Besides getting to a healthy weight, the number one thing that keeps my back from hurting is avoiding gluten (or I should be more accurate, products that contain gluten). And to the GP, I spent years losing weight, getting a proper consistent diet going. It's not like the weeks that I cheat and have a slice of cake that I'm gorging myself. I OMAD, calorie count, and pretty much avoid anything with added sugar or preservatives these days. And yet, yes, absolutely, when I've been off gluten for a month I can tell from small isolated doses that its not good for me. Granted, I'm not sure its actually "gluten" because "cheat" eating bread in Germany does not usually cause me the same problems as eating bread in the states. EDIT: someone in here is commenting about FODMAP. Whether here or elsewhere, you have my attention! Though the food lists I'm seeing don't super align with the symptoms I see, and I don't get IBS from it.
- imtringued 3y ago
  Try spelt products and peppermint tea. If you change nothing about your diet but wheat for spelt (spelt is not gluten free at all) and the problems get less intensive then you don't have gluten sensitivity, you have FODMAP sensitivity.
imtringued 3y ago
Gluten causes leaky gut syndrome, which makes people more susceptible to other problems. This inflammation happens regardless of whether you have celiac disease or not. Most people who have problems with gluten actually have IBS because of FODMAPs but low FODMAP food is a niche product. You can make low FODMAP bread with wheat without changing ingredients just by letting the dough sit longer but that cuts into profit margins so it won't be done.
wpasc 3y ago
I believe you are right in the spirit of people overreacting to gluten. However, there may be more mechanisms at play which create more than 2 categories (celiac and non celiac). (I added some links below). I only post this disagreement with your post as an autoimmune enjoyer who has 0 genes for celiac (although my dad developed full blown celiac at age 55 without any previous symptoms in his life). Having dealt with autoimmune issues for a while and doing a lot of reading and discussions with my various rheumatologists over the years, I find it amazing how little is truly known about the immune system, role of food, role of microbiome, and root causes of auto immune issues. Moreover, the lack of understanding on how auto-immune disease prevalence has gotten way worse in recent decades (at least in the U.S.), way moreso than can be explained by increased reporting/increased life expectancy. Some Links: NPR discussion on zonulin: A Protein In The Gut May Explain Why Some Can't Stomach Gluten https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/12/09/459061317/a-protein-in-the-gut-may-explain-why-some-cant-stomach-gluten https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/12/09/459061317/a-... An overview written by the author mentioned in the NPR Article: Zonulin, regulation of tight junctions, and autoimmune diseases ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384703/
ljf 3y ago
My wife is a coeliac (not an allergy, a disease linked to inflammation), and so doesn't eat wheat, but we end up talking to loads of people about wheat once they hear that. I think most people would consider themselves to have a gluten intolerance, not allergy (at least here in the UK). Similarly my wife is not allergic to milk, but drinking it after now not having it for a long time now gives her a bad stomach and also a rash on the inside of her elbows. But if you tested her I'm sure she wouldn't show as having an allergy. Also - most gluten-free 'replacement' foods (pasta, bread etc.) have MORE calories than their gluten alternative. Note that people can be allergic (and anaphylactic) to wheat, which is a very different thing to coeliac disease.
rgrieselhuber 3y ago
Just anecdotally, looking at photos of Americans from 50-60 years ago vs the average people I see when I go out, the difference is just night and day. People were just naturally lean. Now I see so many people who look like walking inflammation. Something is causing this. Not sure if it’s the wheat, all the sugar, seed oils, etc. or some combination but there is more going on in nutritional health than just ambiguous feelings.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  I'm curious to know how you can tell that strangers have inflammation. What would you look for to detect it?
  - rgrieselhuber 3y ago
    I don't know about how to detect it but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they look like inflammation: puffy, bloated, red. Something I don't see when I travel to places that eat traditional diets.
jona-f 3y ago
Celiac disease is not an allergy, it's an autoimmune disorder and just one confirmed mechanism of gluten sensitivity. There's a lot of people with similar symptoms but of unknown cause. Your "it's just the calories" speculation is ridiculous and dumb. I suggest you stay quiet on the topic and be happy you're not affected.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> Cutting out gluten from your life also cuts out a sizeable source of calories. I'm convinced of this as well. People say that they cut gluten but what they really did was stopped eating frozen pizzas and started eating Mediterranean style. It must be the gluten though. /s
zackmorris 3y ago
No, you're wrong (sorry to be blunt). I used to think as you do, that gluten was just another "white fluffy" that should be avoided to stay lean. Then I got sensitized to wheat around 2018 for a variety of reasons. Mostly work stress, chronic dehydration, drinking too much rye whiskey and beer, occasional tobacco which is really hard on the gut, and a total lack of awareness of how overconsumption of any food injures the body. And getting older, even after 20 years in the gym and generally following a healthy diet. The main problem is that gluten and other components of wheat/husk make it past stomach acid, and their partially digested compounds injure or kill the villi of the small intestine. We don't notice until middle age, when the villi start losing their ability to regenerate. Then people who succumb enter an IBS phase where their digestion is never the same, and they have trouble absorbing nutrients in their small intestine. Gluten also mimics proteins in the body, like in the thyroid, which can trigger various autoimmune diseases. Glyphosate in high concentrations in wheat and oats also disrupts gut flora and can lead to dysbiosis, which may be the cause of a whole host of autoimmune diseases like arthritis, multiple sclerosis and even cancer. Many older obese people are actually starving, and their body composition looks like one of an alcoholic, with hormone imbalances from a deficiency of key vitamins, and too much fructose which is broken down by the liver once the small intestine can't absorb it. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/june/the-gut-shields-the-liver-from-fructose-induced-damage https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/june/th... There is a wealth of information from the holistic community which hasn't made it into western medicine yet, and tons of books like these which started gaining popularity a decade ago: https://againstallgrain.com https://againstallgrain.com Another anecdote is that I've struggled with ADHD symptoms my entire life, which can be loosely thought of as having depression and anxiety at the same time. I've found that avoiding the following foods has largely eliminated my symptoms, as well as completely stopped the chronic joint pain I used to have: * wheat * unaged dairy * caffeine * alcohol * sugar Note that caffeine speeds gut motility, which can be mistaken for IBS. I think it hits vegetarians especially hard, because meat slows digestion. I went through a healing journey from around 2019 to 2022, and my comments from that time are filled with me blaming FODMAPs as the cause of my symptoms. But in all honesty, I think that too much coffee could have been as much as 50% of my problem, tied with wheat and dairy. Legumes and nightshades are still inflammatory, but I feel they contribute perhaps 10-25%. I could write at length about all of this, but I already sound like a conspiracy nut. The big takeaway is that calories-in-calories-out is NOT the cause of obesity - that's propaganda. If you're struggling with your weight and/or mental health, please consider your diet, and get advice from older people. I want to emphasize that I've derived my solutions here as a programmer from firsthand experience, so if something is wrong in my analysis, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong, because I'll just incorporate any new evidence and form a stronger theory. Hope this helps someone! Edit: imtringued's comment about peppermint tea reminded me that peppermint oil is a traditional cure for diarrhea. It may help get IBS in check long enough for the body to return to a healthy state as long as the guidelines I've mentioned are followed.

by zer8k 3y ago

hombre_fatal 3y ago

This is the effect everyone claims when they try any diet. Even the faddiest of fad diets might be the first time in decades they've eaten consciously and, what do you know, they are losing weight when they aren't on autopilot filling their gullet. But the weight loss didn't come from a calorie deficit, of course. It came from some magical interaction that seed oils / gluten / MSG / vegetables were having in their body.

wnolens 3y ago

Strongly disagree here. You're denying that the constituents of food matter and that it's all calories. No one is "allergic" to sugar but it has an effect on the body. Cutting out sugar is (or at least FEELS) different than cutting out the same number of calories in vegetables or meat. There's no (known/convenient) blood test for so many dietary idiosyncrasies.

zer8k 3y ago
The celiac disease test covers most cases of gluten sensitivity. Of the non-celiac gluten sensitive people the rest of them can be found (trivially) with in-office tests at a gastroenterologist. Most gluten containing products also contain simple carbohydrate. Could it be a reduction in insulin resistance? Possibly. Point being, there are tests for this. In fact, a GI can test for many (but probably not all) serious dietary problems.
- OliverGilan 3y ago
  I am negative for the Celiac blood test (got tested three times) but I am absolutely allergic to gluten. Starting three years ago randomly I became allergic and severely ill for months - losing up to 30 lbs in a matter of a month - before isolating the problem to gluten. I have also on multiple occasions accidentally eaten gluten without realizing and immediately felt the symptoms. None of the tests I've taken show gluten as an allergen or problem in my body but cutting it out removes all my symptoms. Our tests are not nearly good enough and I suspect many people deal with chronic inflammation and other health issues due to food they can't eat and don't even realize
  - tmikaeld 3y ago
    I'm curious, what effects and allergies did you get?
- alexcaza 3y ago
  This isn't exactly true. The blood test and biopsy can _sometimes_ find celiac disease, but it _cannot_ diagnose gluten intolerance/sensitivity. If you have an intolerance or sensitivity, the blood test will come back negative as your body doesn't produce antibodies indicative of celiac, and your villi remain intact, so the biopsy will show nothing. However, you can still have some incredibly unpleasant side-effects from eating gluten. Even in folks with celiac disease, it can go under the radar. If you've been eating a gluten free diet prior to the tests, the results can come back negative, but that doesn't mean you don't have it. Source: I have celiac disease, and it was a pain in the ass to get diagnosed.
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    It is insult to injury that the charity Coeliac UK is completely unwilling to assist those who are 'only' gluten intolerant, that is, those for whom the blood test comes back negative. At least here in Britain, the general attitude towards allergies and intorlerances has improved, but the majority of establishments still have no gluten-free menu, let alone an isolated coeliac-safe kitchen.
imtringued 3y ago
Nobody is allergic to sugar but sugar that reaches your large intestine will be absorbed by bacteria and cause uncomfortable bloating or constipation.
- senectus1 3y ago
  see FODMAP Sugars in carbonated drinks, alcohol and fruits plus onions and garlic are all problematic for me

electrondood 3y ago

These people confuse an actual allergy with a sensitivity. Also, it's a pretty weak hypothesis to claim that everyone feels better when eliminating flour and other grains because they're no longer experiencing inflammation from overeating and being overweight.

beebmam 3y ago

I do not have the allergy. I also don't have Celiac disease. (Yes, I have been tested for these, presuming the tests are accurate) However I do have these symptoms after a few weeks of including wheat in my diet again: - serious muscle tightness, especially my chest and diaphragm/intercostals - joint soreness/pain, ankles/wrists/fingers - constipation - pimples on my shoulders and chest - occasional stuffy noses These symptoms mostly alleviate within a few weeks when I stop eating wheat. My doctor thinks it's probably some kind of "sensitivity". I don't really know what that means, but she said it's fine to stop eating wheat if that improves my symptoms. So I did. But it tastes so good that every several years I reintroduce it to my diet, and I end up regretting it as the symptoms come back. Have had this problem with wheat since I was a teenager. Started taking action about it as a young adult. I'm middle aged now.

predictabl3 3y ago
For me, the two that are so easy/obvious to me now that I've structured my diet dilligently... acne and joint pain/inflammation. Besides getting to a healthy weight, the number one thing that keeps my back from hurting is avoiding gluten (or I should be more accurate, products that contain gluten). And to the GP, I spent years losing weight, getting a proper consistent diet going. It's not like the weeks that I cheat and have a slice of cake that I'm gorging myself. I OMAD, calorie count, and pretty much avoid anything with added sugar or preservatives these days. And yet, yes, absolutely, when I've been off gluten for a month I can tell from small isolated doses that its not good for me. Granted, I'm not sure its actually "gluten" because "cheat" eating bread in Germany does not usually cause me the same problems as eating bread in the states. EDIT: someone in here is commenting about FODMAP. Whether here or elsewhere, you have my attention! Though the food lists I'm seeing don't super align with the symptoms I see, and I don't get IBS from it.
imtringued 3y ago
Try spelt products and peppermint tea. If you change nothing about your diet but wheat for spelt (spelt is not gluten free at all) and the problems get less intensive then you don't have gluten sensitivity, you have FODMAP sensitivity.

imtringued 3y ago

Gluten causes leaky gut syndrome, which makes people more susceptible to other problems. This inflammation happens regardless of whether you have celiac disease or not. Most people who have problems with gluten actually have IBS because of FODMAPs but low FODMAP food is a niche product. You can make low FODMAP bread with wheat without changing ingredients just by letting the dough sit longer but that cuts into profit margins so it won't be done.

wpasc 3y ago

I believe you are right in the spirit of people overreacting to gluten. However, there may be more mechanisms at play which create more than 2 categories (celiac and non celiac). (I added some links below). I only post this disagreement with your post as an autoimmune enjoyer who has 0 genes for celiac (although my dad developed full blown celiac at age 55 without any previous symptoms in his life). Having dealt with autoimmune issues for a while and doing a lot of reading and discussions with my various rheumatologists over the years, I find it amazing how little is truly known about the immune system, role of food, role of microbiome, and root causes of auto immune issues. Moreover, the lack of understanding on how auto-immune disease prevalence has gotten way worse in recent decades (at least in the U.S.), way moreso than can be explained by increased reporting/increased life expectancy. Some Links: NPR discussion on zonulin: A Protein In The Gut May Explain Why Some Can't Stomach Gluten https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/12/09/459061317/a-protein-in-the-gut-may-explain-why-some-cant-stomach-gluten https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/12/09/459061317/a-... An overview written by the author mentioned in the NPR Article: Zonulin, regulation of tight junctions, and autoimmune diseases ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384703/

ljf 3y ago

My wife is a coeliac (not an allergy, a disease linked to inflammation), and so doesn't eat wheat, but we end up talking to loads of people about wheat once they hear that. I think most people would consider themselves to have a gluten intolerance, not allergy (at least here in the UK). Similarly my wife is not allergic to milk, but drinking it after now not having it for a long time now gives her a bad stomach and also a rash on the inside of her elbows. But if you tested her I'm sure she wouldn't show as having an allergy. Also - most gluten-free 'replacement' foods (pasta, bread etc.) have MORE calories than their gluten alternative. Note that people can be allergic (and anaphylactic) to wheat, which is a very different thing to coeliac disease.

rgrieselhuber 3y ago

Just anecdotally, looking at photos of Americans from 50-60 years ago vs the average people I see when I go out, the difference is just night and day. People were just naturally lean. Now I see so many people who look like walking inflammation. Something is causing this. Not sure if it’s the wheat, all the sugar, seed oils, etc. or some combination but there is more going on in nutritional health than just ambiguous feelings.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
I'm curious to know how you can tell that strangers have inflammation. What would you look for to detect it?
- rgrieselhuber 3y ago
  I don't know about how to detect it but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they look like inflammation: puffy, bloated, red. Something I don't see when I travel to places that eat traditional diets.

jona-f 3y ago

Celiac disease is not an allergy, it's an autoimmune disorder and just one confirmed mechanism of gluten sensitivity. There's a lot of people with similar symptoms but of unknown cause. Your "it's just the calories" speculation is ridiculous and dumb. I suggest you stay quiet on the topic and be happy you're not affected.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> Cutting out gluten from your life also cuts out a sizeable source of calories. I'm convinced of this as well. People say that they cut gluten but what they really did was stopped eating frozen pizzas and started eating Mediterranean style. It must be the gluten though. /s

zackmorris 3y ago

No, you're wrong (sorry to be blunt). I used to think as you do, that gluten was just another "white fluffy" that should be avoided to stay lean. Then I got sensitized to wheat around 2018 for a variety of reasons. Mostly work stress, chronic dehydration, drinking too much rye whiskey and beer, occasional tobacco which is really hard on the gut, and a total lack of awareness of how overconsumption of any food injures the body. And getting older, even after 20 years in the gym and generally following a healthy diet. The main problem is that gluten and other components of wheat/husk make it past stomach acid, and their partially digested compounds injure or kill the villi of the small intestine. We don't notice until middle age, when the villi start losing their ability to regenerate. Then people who succumb enter an IBS phase where their digestion is never the same, and they have trouble absorbing nutrients in their small intestine. Gluten also mimics proteins in the body, like in the thyroid, which can trigger various autoimmune diseases. Glyphosate in high concentrations in wheat and oats also disrupts gut flora and can lead to dysbiosis, which may be the cause of a whole host of autoimmune diseases like arthritis, multiple sclerosis and even cancer. Many older obese people are actually starving, and their body composition looks like one of an alcoholic, with hormone imbalances from a deficiency of key vitamins, and too much fructose which is broken down by the liver once the small intestine can't absorb it. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/june/the-gut-shields-the-liver-from-fructose-induced-damage https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/june/th... There is a wealth of information from the holistic community which hasn't made it into western medicine yet, and tons of books like these which started gaining popularity a decade ago: https://againstallgrain.com https://againstallgrain.com Another anecdote is that I've struggled with ADHD symptoms my entire life, which can be loosely thought of as having depression and anxiety at the same time. I've found that avoiding the following foods has largely eliminated my symptoms, as well as completely stopped the chronic joint pain I used to have: * wheat * unaged dairy * caffeine * alcohol * sugar Note that caffeine speeds gut motility, which can be mistaken for IBS. I think it hits vegetarians especially hard, because meat slows digestion. I went through a healing journey from around 2019 to 2022, and my comments from that time are filled with me blaming FODMAPs as the cause of my symptoms. But in all honesty, I think that too much coffee could have been as much as 50% of my problem, tied with wheat and dairy. Legumes and nightshades are still inflammatory, but I feel they contribute perhaps 10-25%. I could write at length about all of this, but I already sound like a conspiracy nut. The big takeaway is that calories-in-calories-out is NOT the cause of obesity - that's propaganda. If you're struggling with your weight and/or mental health, please consider your diet, and get advice from older people. I want to emphasize that I've derived my solutions here as a programmer from firsthand experience, so if something is wrong in my analysis, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong, because I'll just incorporate any new evidence and form a stronger theory. Hope this helps someone! Edit: imtringued's comment about peppermint tea reminded me that peppermint oil is a traditional cure for diarrhea. It may help get IBS in check long enough for the body to return to a healthy state as long as the guidelines I've mentioned are followed.