4 ms·

This is the second[0] headline inaccurately claiming $170k in pay when it is actually expected average pay (including overtime) plus healthcare and other benefi

by clipsy 3y ago

This is the second[0] headline inaccurately claiming $170k in pay when it is actually expected average pay (including overtime) plus healthcare and other benefits. The headline from TFA is: "UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 a year, firm says" Which, unless I've counted incorrectly, should fit in HN's headline character limits. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37054416 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37054416

prepend 3y ago
It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits. Looks accurate to me.
- cma 3y ago
  Does the number include the employer's portion of social security/Medicare taxes?
  - prepend 3y ago
    I wouldn’t expect it to, although sometimes I see that broken out as “taxes paid on your behalf.” I look at what is a benefit to me and what I would need to pay for if the employer didn’t. Health insurance is a benefit because if my employer didn’t pay it, I would. I would not need to pay my employer social security/Medicare (nor unemployment nor workers comp, etc). Although back when I was comparing w2 and 1099 offers I included it in my calculation because I would need to pay it for myself if I chose to work 1099.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Note that benefits will include insurance as well, so realistically base salary might be around $80-90k with the option of additional overtime, so not shabby by blue collar standards, but definetly not as comfy as similarly compensated desk jobs.
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    Even family health insurance typically costs 20k-30k in total (employer included) premiums a year. Life, dental, and vision are not even worth mentioning in comparison. This sounds like it's over the six figure mark to me. Perhaps some of this is generous retirement benefits? The article also says: > Prior to the new deal, the company said drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour, and another $50,000 in benefits. So they're definitely breaking 100k now.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    So it's just straight up a normal middle class income. Except wage suppression and expectation-lowering propaganda has been so effective it now feels like a lot. Propaganda, I will point out, like exactly like this headline. "170k!" you are encouraged to think. "I don't even make that much, and I deserve it. This affects me negatively somehow" you are expected to believe. Good propaganda is as true as possible, ideally unimpeachably so.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    no, required unpaid overtime due to route scheduling. It has been that way for almost 20 years now. 50 years ago that was a decent job with good pay.
    - prepend 3y ago
      UPS pays overtime. The article talks about how this 170k includes average overtime. You think the teamsters are letting people work unpaid overtime?
      - mistrial9 3y ago
        I think you should stop the driver one day, and ask them as a human what they do, and how well paid it is. You tell me.
        prepend 3y ago
        I just did that and they said “well.” I also know quite a few people who drive for UPS and every one of them says it’s hard work but they’re paid well. And they have stories of “paying their dues” as a stocker or whatever before they got in the union. Also most of them seek out overtime because there’s multipliers and whatnot. You may be confusing UPS drivers with FedEx and others who aren’t unionized and are contractors. I think UPS is basically the best place to work as a driver.
- clipsy 3y ago
  > It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits. It seems at best like it skirts the line of "technically not incorrect" for questionable reasons; compensation packages are not an uncommon topic of conversation here or in the tech industry generally and I've never once heard someone include the cost of benefits in their TC. Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid. I wouldn't, because that's exactly how most of my employers made their offer to me[1]. Not all, but most. Total compensation, in my world, anyway, isn't a rare way to put these things. [1] The ones who do this also usually include the cash compensation somewhere in the offer letter, though. If they don't, I'll ask because that's the only part of the compensation package that I actually care about.
    - clipsy 3y ago
      I can't help but wonder if we're talking at cross purposes here? I would consider a "pay package" or "compensation package" to include salary, bonus (in some form: average, max, ???), and equity. That has been the standard "total compensation" for every tech company I've worked for and every tech company at which I've been offered a position. I would not consider: the employer's share of health insurance premiums, 401k matching, "health and wellness" benefits, transit benefits, catered food, coffee, or toilet paper in the office restrooms to be part of the "pay package" because none of that is pay. If my expectations are genuinely unusual then I guess I consider myself quite fortunate!
      - prepend 3y ago
        What I ask for is all compensation from my potential employer. If they don’t provide it, that’s a bad sign. Things I ask for: -salary -average and median overtime (if applicable) -paid time off with leave and sick broken out -company holidays (eg Christmas, Juneteenth, etc) -pension -401k match -insurance - health, life, disability, dental, vision -anything else the company pays for me I definitely care most about salary, but I compare total bottom line across offers. If one company pays $100k and has no 401k match and another pays $95k with 10% 401k match that’s really useful in deciding.
dang 3y ago
Ok I've changed it to what the title says at the moment. (Submitted title was "UPS drivers in US to get $170k pay package" - possibly BBC had that earlier?)

by clipsy 3y ago

prepend 3y ago

It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits. Looks accurate to me.

cma 3y ago
Does the number include the employer's portion of social security/Medicare taxes?
- prepend 3y ago
  I wouldn’t expect it to, although sometimes I see that broken out as “taxes paid on your behalf.” I look at what is a benefit to me and what I would need to pay for if the employer didn’t. Health insurance is a benefit because if my employer didn’t pay it, I would. I would not need to pay my employer social security/Medicare (nor unemployment nor workers comp, etc). Although back when I was comparing w2 and 1099 offers I included it in my calculation because I would need to pay it for myself if I chose to work 1099.
alephnerd 3y ago
Note that benefits will include insurance as well, so realistically base salary might be around $80-90k with the option of additional overtime, so not shabby by blue collar standards, but definetly not as comfy as similarly compensated desk jobs.
- Amezarak 3y ago
  Even family health insurance typically costs 20k-30k in total (employer included) premiums a year. Life, dental, and vision are not even worth mentioning in comparison. This sounds like it's over the six figure mark to me. Perhaps some of this is generous retirement benefits? The article also says: > Prior to the new deal, the company said drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour, and another $50,000 in benefits. So they're definitely breaking 100k now.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  So it's just straight up a normal middle class income. Except wage suppression and expectation-lowering propaganda has been so effective it now feels like a lot. Propaganda, I will point out, like exactly like this headline. "170k!" you are encouraged to think. "I don't even make that much, and I deserve it. This affects me negatively somehow" you are expected to believe. Good propaganda is as true as possible, ideally unimpeachably so.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  no, required unpaid overtime due to route scheduling. It has been that way for almost 20 years now. 50 years ago that was a decent job with good pay.
  - prepend 3y ago
    UPS pays overtime. The article talks about how this 170k includes average overtime. You think the teamsters are letting people work unpaid overtime?
    - mistrial9 3y ago
      I think you should stop the driver one day, and ask them as a human what they do, and how well paid it is. You tell me.
      - prepend 3y ago
        I just did that and they said “well.” I also know quite a few people who drive for UPS and every one of them says it’s hard work but they’re paid well. And they have stories of “paying their dues” as a stocker or whatever before they got in the union. Also most of them seek out overtime because there’s multipliers and whatnot. You may be confusing UPS drivers with FedEx and others who aren’t unionized and are contractors. I think UPS is basically the best place to work as a driver.
clipsy 3y ago
> It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits. It seems at best like it skirts the line of "technically not incorrect" for questionable reasons; compensation packages are not an uncommon topic of conversation here or in the tech industry generally and I've never once heard someone include the cost of benefits in their TC. Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid. I wouldn't, because that's exactly how most of my employers made their offer to me[1]. Not all, but most. Total compensation, in my world, anyway, isn't a rare way to put these things. [1] The ones who do this also usually include the cash compensation somewhere in the offer letter, though. If they don't, I'll ask because that's the only part of the compensation package that I actually care about.
  - clipsy 3y ago
    I can't help but wonder if we're talking at cross purposes here? I would consider a "pay package" or "compensation package" to include salary, bonus (in some form: average, max, ???), and equity. That has been the standard "total compensation" for every tech company I've worked for and every tech company at which I've been offered a position. I would not consider: the employer's share of health insurance premiums, 401k matching, "health and wellness" benefits, transit benefits, catered food, coffee, or toilet paper in the office restrooms to be part of the "pay package" because none of that is pay. If my expectations are genuinely unusual then I guess I consider myself quite fortunate!
    - prepend 3y ago
      What I ask for is all compensation from my potential employer. If they don’t provide it, that’s a bad sign. Things I ask for: -salary -average and median overtime (if applicable) -paid time off with leave and sick broken out -company holidays (eg Christmas, Juneteenth, etc) -pension -401k match -insurance - health, life, disability, dental, vision -anything else the company pays for me I definitely care most about salary, but I compare total bottom line across offers. If one company pays $100k and has no 401k match and another pays $95k with 10% 401k match that’s really useful in deciding.

dang 3y ago

Ok I've changed it to what the title says at the moment. (Submitted title was "UPS drivers in US to get $170k pay package" - possibly BBC had that earlier?)