7 ms·

It's political suicide for Republicans. Left leaning Democrats like Bernie are all for it.

by esalman 3y ago

taude 3y ago
Not enough far left leaning Dems to make Bernie a reality.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  1.8 million voters over the age of 55 die every year in the US. 4 million voters turn 18. We're just arguing time horizon and cohort turn out rates. Bernie was just too early after Reagan, globalization, and deregulation. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/1-generations-party-identification-midterm-voting-preferences-views-of-trump/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/1-generation... https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/01/17/generat... https://archive.is/iRyQE https://archive.is/iRyQE https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/09/the-politics-of-american-generations-how-age-affects-attitudes-and-voting-behavior/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/09/the-polit... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/29/gen-z-millennials-and-gen-x-outvoted-older-generations-in-2018-midterms/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/29/gen-z-mil... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/04/28/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers-as-americas-largest-generation/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/04/28/millennia... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/04/03/millennials-approach-baby-boomers-as-largest-generation-in-u-s-electorate/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/04/03/millennia...
  - umeshunni 3y ago
    Except that people also age out of far left ideas. The 18 year old who's like "hell yeah, ownership is theft, raise the taxes" feels differently when they turn 35 and have to pay those taxes.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Third citation in my comment addresses your argument. Hard to become conservative when you have nothing to lose. https://archive.is/iRyQE/f34b0a039aef880774f7d7d1dac5c0f554594b82.avif https://archive.is/iRyQE/f34b0a039aef880774f7d7d1dac5c0f5545...
      - mikecoles 3y ago
        It's not hard when you have the will and work ethic.
        finite_depth 3y ago
        I'm well off and I work considerably less hard than many people making close to minimum wage. I'm treated better, trusted more, respected more, and have much more flexibility in my work. Will and work ethic are weakly necessary for success, but they are not at all sufficient for it. (not successful) -> (not work ethic) is denying the antecedent: (successful) -> (work ethic) is, if not always true, at least often true, but that doesn't imply its converse.
        toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Even in the face of hard facts, people resort to self deception in order to protect treasured illusions. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-rol...
    - finite_depth 3y ago
      I'm well into my 30s, in the top few percent for income in the US, and live in California (one of the highest tax states), and I happily pay them. I'm alive today because of their benefits, and I'd be the worst kind of hypocrite to pull the ladder up after me. People's objection to social safety nets mostly isn't their desire to keep their money. It's a perception that the people who need those safety nets are lazy bums who don't deserve help. That's a particularly common perception among hard-working professionals, whose logic is "I worked hard to get where I am, so if others worked hard, they wouldn't need help". What they miss in that analysis, of course, is that their hard work combines with talent, luck, privilege, and health, things that many people who suffer lack. As a relative newcomer to the economic elite, I find it pretty distressing to hear how wealthy people talk about the poor when I myself was homeless less than five years ago.
- zer8k 3y ago
  This post really indicates how deep the mainstream misinformation networks have penetrated the minds of the American. The "real" Republican party, consisting of younger voters, is by-and-large populist. Majority of them are pro-gay (though, anti-trans), pro legalization of weed, pro gun, and pro free healthcare. The problem is that the real Republican party consists of 80 year old neoliberal sacks of garbage. These are the people making the laws. The Democrats are not different. It may seem to be a cliche that "both parties are the same" but when you observe effected policy vs proposed policy both parties fall along the neoliberal line almost perfectly. What we have a neoliberal gerontocracy. Not a democracy. This is why internally there's a struggle for the R's to keep young voters. The same problem D's are having. While the D's are blowing their own foot off going too far off to the left socially, the R's are blowing their own foot off sticking to their dogmatic 1960s neoliberal policies. It's far more complicated than left/right dynamics. Its absurd to me how much misinformation CNN/Fox/MSNBC/NPR put out about this. If anyone on the left actually wandered to their nearest blue collar bar and asked people what they thought on "the issues" you'd probably find they are more "liberal" than you were let on by your favorite misinformation artist.
kansface 3y ago
I don’t imagine it would be popular with unions, either.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  They are against universal healthcare. Not because it's not a good idea, but because unions in general have negotiated for healthcare benefits. It's sad they're being so petty about this.
CSMastermind 3y ago
What's to stop your local city government from increasing taxes to hire a doctor and provide them with a building and staff in order to provide medical services to locals residents? It seems to me that the problem is that everyone wants a federal solution to healthcare and the United States is generally structured to limit federal power. Fire departments are funded locally generally speaking, it didn't take a federal mandate to create them. If you think medical services should be provided to people as a civic service, go convince your local government to do it.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://www.actuary.org/sites/default/files/pdf/health/pool_july09.pdf https://www.actuary.org/sites/default/files/pdf/health/pool_... ("For a risk pool to remain viable, it must be of sufficient size and comprised of a broad cross section of risks.")
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    There are US states more populous than some European countries. Maybe a city can’t do it, but plenty of states could. It’s just damn expensive to try.
    - muttled 3y ago
      Reading your comment, I had the thought "I wonder if California's done it?" Turns out they've tried it 10 times. I'd imagine there's a lot of money being thrown against the initiative by for-profit insurance companies, which is an industry with a lot of cash to buy laws. https://stateofreform.com/featured/2023/05/california-seeks-to-establish-single-payer-healthcare-system-for-10th-time-since-1994/ https://stateofreform.com/featured/2023/05/california-seeks-...
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        That reads like they've tried to try it 9 or 10 times. They haven't even gotten to the point of finding out what all might turn out differently in a US state than in an EU country surrounded by other EU countries, all with roughly similar approaches to public health care.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Bernie isn't a Democrat.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  He's a three term Senator elected to that body as an Independent that has always caucused with the Democrats (as he did in the House befor that), is currently given by the Senate Democrats the position of Chair of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee, and was the #2 Democrat in the last two Presidential nominating contests.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats. Bernie Sanders identifies as a Democratic Socialist. You can, of course, call him whatever you want, but it won't make him identify himself differently.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, Yes, and lots of people do. People who aren’t accepted by other Democrats as part of the team don’t end up with large blocks of convention delegates and a major role in shaping the rules going forward due to that. > they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats No such thing exists, unless you are talking about people who pay membership fees to the DNC, but that's a pretty narrow definition.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Yes, Democrat is just a label that you use to identify yourself, and if Bernie says he isn't a Democrat, he isn't a Democrat.
the_lego 3y ago
[flagged]
cebert 3y ago
The Republican Party has been becoming more of a populist party. I wouldn’t be surprised if they start backing such policies or universal income as we deal with several societal and economic changes.
- dcre 3y ago
  I would be surprised!
- outside1234 3y ago
  … but only for folks who “deserve it” (aka white)
- mlinhares 3y ago
  Populism is mostly separating people in two groups, "the people" and "the elites" and saying you're from "the people". You don't actually have to do anything for the people, just convince them you're with them (hence all the populists winning elections out there, like Trump). Odds Republicans would ever do something like this with the current party are nil, a large part of republican donors are big businesses that would never back anything that empowers workers.
  - cudgy 3y ago
    Odds Democrats would ever do something like this are slim too. Democrats receive more money from Wall Street than Republicans now https://www.npr.org/2020/08/17/902626429/wall-streets-big-money-is-betting-on-biden-and-democrats-in-2020 https://www.npr.org/2020/08/17/902626429/wall-streets-big-mo... Till we all realize that both parties are the problem and stop calling the party we don’t support the boogey man, we will be stuck in this hamster wheel of absurdity.
    - mlinhares 3y ago
      They take a lot of money from unions as well so I'd say while the odds are low it's more likely to happen with Ds.

It's political suicide for Republicans. Left leaning Democrats like Bernie are all for it.

taude 3y ago

Not enough far left leaning Dems to make Bernie a reality.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
1.8 million voters over the age of 55 die every year in the US. 4 million voters turn 18. We're just arguing time horizon and cohort turn out rates. Bernie was just too early after Reagan, globalization, and deregulation. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/1-generations-party-identification-midterm-voting-preferences-views-of-trump/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/1-generation... https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/01/17/generat... https://archive.is/iRyQE https://archive.is/iRyQE https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/09/the-politics-of-american-generations-how-age-affects-attitudes-and-voting-behavior/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/09/the-polit... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/29/gen-z-millennials-and-gen-x-outvoted-older-generations-in-2018-midterms/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/29/gen-z-mil... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/04/28/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers-as-americas-largest-generation/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/04/28/millennia... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/04/03/millennials-approach-baby-boomers-as-largest-generation-in-u-s-electorate/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/04/03/millennia...
- umeshunni 3y ago
  Except that people also age out of far left ideas. The 18 year old who's like "hell yeah, ownership is theft, raise the taxes" feels differently when they turn 35 and have to pay those taxes.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Third citation in my comment addresses your argument. Hard to become conservative when you have nothing to lose. https://archive.is/iRyQE/f34b0a039aef880774f7d7d1dac5c0f554594b82.avif https://archive.is/iRyQE/f34b0a039aef880774f7d7d1dac5c0f5545...
    - mikecoles 3y ago
      It's not hard when you have the will and work ethic.
      - finite_depth 3y ago
        I'm well off and I work considerably less hard than many people making close to minimum wage. I'm treated better, trusted more, respected more, and have much more flexibility in my work. Will and work ethic are weakly necessary for success, but they are not at all sufficient for it. (not successful) -> (not work ethic) is denying the antecedent: (successful) -> (work ethic) is, if not always true, at least often true, but that doesn't imply its converse.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Even in the face of hard facts, people resort to self deception in order to protect treasured illusions. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-role-of-luck-in-life-success-is-far-greater-than-we-realized/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-rol...
  - finite_depth 3y ago
    I'm well into my 30s, in the top few percent for income in the US, and live in California (one of the highest tax states), and I happily pay them. I'm alive today because of their benefits, and I'd be the worst kind of hypocrite to pull the ladder up after me. People's objection to social safety nets mostly isn't their desire to keep their money. It's a perception that the people who need those safety nets are lazy bums who don't deserve help. That's a particularly common perception among hard-working professionals, whose logic is "I worked hard to get where I am, so if others worked hard, they wouldn't need help". What they miss in that analysis, of course, is that their hard work combines with talent, luck, privilege, and health, things that many people who suffer lack. As a relative newcomer to the economic elite, I find it pretty distressing to hear how wealthy people talk about the poor when I myself was homeless less than five years ago.
zer8k 3y ago
This post really indicates how deep the mainstream misinformation networks have penetrated the minds of the American. The "real" Republican party, consisting of younger voters, is by-and-large populist. Majority of them are pro-gay (though, anti-trans), pro legalization of weed, pro gun, and pro free healthcare. The problem is that the real Republican party consists of 80 year old neoliberal sacks of garbage. These are the people making the laws. The Democrats are not different. It may seem to be a cliche that "both parties are the same" but when you observe effected policy vs proposed policy both parties fall along the neoliberal line almost perfectly. What we have a neoliberal gerontocracy. Not a democracy. This is why internally there's a struggle for the R's to keep young voters. The same problem D's are having. While the D's are blowing their own foot off going too far off to the left socially, the R's are blowing their own foot off sticking to their dogmatic 1960s neoliberal policies. It's far more complicated than left/right dynamics. Its absurd to me how much misinformation CNN/Fox/MSNBC/NPR put out about this. If anyone on the left actually wandered to their nearest blue collar bar and asked people what they thought on "the issues" you'd probably find they are more "liberal" than you were let on by your favorite misinformation artist.

kansface 3y ago

I don’t imagine it would be popular with unions, either.

nielsbot 3y ago
They are against universal healthcare. Not because it's not a good idea, but because unions in general have negotiated for healthcare benefits. It's sad they're being so petty about this.

CSMastermind 3y ago

What's to stop your local city government from increasing taxes to hire a doctor and provide them with a building and staff in order to provide medical services to locals residents? It seems to me that the problem is that everyone wants a federal solution to healthcare and the United States is generally structured to limit federal power. Fire departments are funded locally generally speaking, it didn't take a federal mandate to create them. If you think medical services should be provided to people as a civic service, go convince your local government to do it.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://www.actuary.org/sites/default/files/pdf/health/pool_july09.pdf https://www.actuary.org/sites/default/files/pdf/health/pool_... ("For a risk pool to remain viable, it must be of sufficient size and comprised of a broad cross section of risks.")
- sokoloff 3y ago
  There are US states more populous than some European countries. Maybe a city can’t do it, but plenty of states could. It’s just damn expensive to try.
  - muttled 3y ago
    Reading your comment, I had the thought "I wonder if California's done it?" Turns out they've tried it 10 times. I'd imagine there's a lot of money being thrown against the initiative by for-profit insurance companies, which is an industry with a lot of cash to buy laws. https://stateofreform.com/featured/2023/05/california-seeks-to-establish-single-payer-healthcare-system-for-10th-time-since-1994/ https://stateofreform.com/featured/2023/05/california-seeks-...
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      That reads like they've tried to try it 9 or 10 times. They haven't even gotten to the point of finding out what all might turn out differently in a US state than in an EU country surrounded by other EU countries, all with roughly similar approaches to public health care.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Bernie isn't a Democrat.

dragonwriter 3y ago
He's a three term Senator elected to that body as an Independent that has always caucused with the Democrats (as he did in the House befor that), is currently given by the Senate Democrats the position of Chair of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee, and was the #2 Democrat in the last two Presidential nominating contests.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats. Bernie Sanders identifies as a Democratic Socialist. You can, of course, call him whatever you want, but it won't make him identify himself differently.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, Yes, and lots of people do. People who aren’t accepted by other Democrats as part of the team don’t end up with large blocks of convention delegates and a major role in shaping the rules going forward due to that. > they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats No such thing exists, unless you are talking about people who pay membership fees to the DNC, but that's a pretty narrow definition.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Yes, Democrat is just a label that you use to identify yourself, and if Bernie says he isn't a Democrat, he isn't a Democrat.

the_lego 3y ago

[flagged]

cebert 3y ago

The Republican Party has been becoming more of a populist party. I wouldn’t be surprised if they start backing such policies or universal income as we deal with several societal and economic changes.

dcre 3y ago
I would be surprised!
outside1234 3y ago
… but only for folks who “deserve it” (aka white)
mlinhares 3y ago
Populism is mostly separating people in two groups, "the people" and "the elites" and saying you're from "the people". You don't actually have to do anything for the people, just convince them you're with them (hence all the populists winning elections out there, like Trump). Odds Republicans would ever do something like this with the current party are nil, a large part of republican donors are big businesses that would never back anything that empowers workers.
- cudgy 3y ago
  Odds Democrats would ever do something like this are slim too. Democrats receive more money from Wall Street than Republicans now https://www.npr.org/2020/08/17/902626429/wall-streets-big-money-is-betting-on-biden-and-democrats-in-2020 https://www.npr.org/2020/08/17/902626429/wall-streets-big-mo... Till we all realize that both parties are the problem and stop calling the party we don’t support the boogey man, we will be stuck in this hamster wheel of absurdity.
  - mlinhares 3y ago
    They take a lot of money from unions as well so I'd say while the odds are low it's more likely to happen with Ds.