12 ms·

Magic Earth: OSM based map and routing with crowd sourced traffic data

205 points by executesorder66 3y ago

raybb 3y ago
Does Magic Earth contribute data upstream to OSM in any way? Like making it easy for users to report issue?
jasonlfunk 3y ago
My iphone is telling me that it’s not available in my region (USA).
- OGWhales 3y ago
  I emailed them last week to ask about that and they said it’s currently only available in Europe, but they’d hope to have it released in the Americas this week if all goes well. This is on iOS.
  - KoftaBob 3y ago
    Did they say why it's not available in the US? I installed it a year or so ago before it was removed from the US app store, which is why I still have it on my phone.
- richiebful1 3y ago
  That's strange. It works well on Android in the USA
admaiora 3y ago
A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me. You can have a paid product but open source the project.
- rglullis 3y ago
  Is there a just-as-good FOSS alternative? Or at least one that could catch up if it receives more support?
- OGWhales 3y ago
  An open-source alternative is Organic Maps: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps
  - kzrdude 3y ago
    Does it have live traffic information? It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established. OsmAnd does not (to my knowledge) have any live traffic info.
    - benoliver999 3y ago
      No
    - OGWhales 3y ago
      Unfortunately it does not have live traffic data like the app it is forked from, maps.me. Hopefully they add it, but there aren’t many good open traffic projects that exist, so they’d need to rely on crowd sourced data like Magic Earth is doing and I’m not sure how well that would work.
    - hk__2 3y ago
      > It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established OrganicMaps is a fork of Maps.me, which is very well known among the general public: 55k ratings on the Apple Store and 50M downloads on the Play Store for Maps.me vs. 1.8k and 10M for OsmAnd. Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM, whereas with OsmAnd it’s clear right from the name.
      - kzrdude 3y ago
filleokus 3y ago
I wonder how many users you need in a given metro area to get resonable accuracy? Probably not that many, but seems like a tricky problem to boot strap. Is the point to be an non-google alternative to Google Maps on Android? (On iOS as well of course, but there I guess you have almost no option but to trust Apple, and can use Apple Maps). Little bit weird that the App Store listing says they are not collecting any data when they have this crowd sourcing of data? Is this the same General Magic as the one publishing the app? https://www.generalmagic.io https://www.generalmagic.io EDIT: Probably not the same: This seems to be the company behind it https://www.magiclane.com/web/about/ https://www.magiclane.com/web/about/ if you sleuth round a bit. Then the pricing model of free makes more sense at least. EDIT2: Or maybe not at all, the street addresses don't match up. Enough playing internet detective for this coffee break, back to work.
- NGRhodes 3y ago
  You are right, on the about page: >Team > >We are a team of 46 – young yet experienced. The founders of Magic Lane also build the very first route planner which ran on the Mac and PC in the 1990, formerly known as Route 66. Route 66 was also the first to release navigation solutions for Nokia, Samsung and HTC mobile phones. With over 30 years of experience in the Maps, Location & Navigation industry, the founders decided a few years ago to rebuild the entire software from scratch. The aim was to do this without compromise, with privacy and three other basic principles in mind: the platform must operate on minimal hardware, be fully functional offline, and be easy to integrate. The development project was carried out under the name General Magic, with the navigation app Magic Earth as a testing ground for Android and iOS
munhitsu 3y ago
I wonder what their business model is
rompic 3y ago
Shameless, but related, plug for NUNAV (I work for the company behind it, but not on this product): If you are located in Europe you might like to try NUNAV Navigation as well, which uses a collaborative routing based approach to distribute traffic. iphone: https://apps.apple.com/de/app/nunav-navigation/id1193133974?itsct=apps_box_badge https://apps.apple.com/de/app/nunav-navigation/id1193133974?... android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nunav.play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nunav.play
- exikyut 3y ago
  Mild expression of curiosity, since I'm not sure if this'll be useful for me (I'm in AU): this is listed as "requires Android 6+", yet shows "Does not work on your device" for every single device listed, including my main phone which definitely isn't that old. But it's not showing "not available in your country".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rompic 3y ago
    thanks for the feedback. I'll check with the developers.
- rsolva 3y ago
  Hey, this looks great! The only thing I miss is an option to add multiple destinations or search for gas stations, shops etc on an ongoing route.
  - rompic 3y ago
    It's on a very long list. Afaik it does exist on ios, but via-routing has low usage so it's not a high priority atm.
- btzs 3y ago
  Is NUNAV based on OSM data?
reboot81 3y ago
So I can go places, without the oogling.
leokeba 3y ago
If the developers are around, I would like to ask a simple question : Does this app only use realtime data for calculating ETA and routes, or does it learn some statistical regularities in the traffic patterns to make predictions ? I'm asking because this is the main weakness of all similar apps that I know of, they always give you an estimation using only the current state of traffic on the whole journey, so if you are going towards a busy city at peak traffic time it may add one or two hours to the ETA even if you are still 5 hours away and everything will be gone by the time you get there. Obviously the reverse situation is even more annoying, I live in the Paris area, and when I leave home around 4pm and ask google maps an itinerary, it may tell me I'm only 30 minutes away, but 15 minutes later shit hits the fan and I end up an hour late on my schedule. Obviously after a while you start learning the traffic patterns and plan accordingly, which is okay I guess, but we're in 2023, how can google not be up to the task of correctly predicting a traffic spike when it's regular on a daily or weekly basis ? Is that just too much data / compute for them ? If anybody has a clue, I'm curious.
- PcChip 3y ago
  I thought the "arrive at" feature of Google maps took into account usual traffic patterns at that time of day?
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    In theory. However it appears to underestimate traffic delays for DC->OBX beach traffic. On a summer Saturday morning, that’s a 6-7 hour drive. Or worse. Apple Maps has it closer to 5-5:30 for most of the day. Google gives a range from 4:45-6:30 - 4:45 is basically impossible any time of day and year but 6:30 is ballpark-ish if you don’t hit a major traffic jam. But maybe that’s a worst-case route.
    - hedora 3y ago
      Here We Go is frighteningly accurate for SF bay area traffic predictions. (E.g., within 2 minutes, driving between south bay and north San Francisco, with traffic). It must be using statistical models to predict future traffic. It is often pre-loaded on European car console units so you may be using it without realizing it. It’s free for iOS and Android, and works offline (offline support is the killer feature for me).
hexmiles 3y ago
Off-topic question from non-native English speaker, on the website is present this phrase; "We agree that the worst person to be stuck in traffic, is you.", I instinctively read it as them calling me the worst person, which is clearly not the case, and I understand what they mean, but I still feel like this phrasing is off...
- mnky9800n 3y ago
  I suppose it is supposed to be tongue in cheek but as a native english speaker i also find it awkward even though it might be correct.
- dave881 3y ago
  As a native speaker, this is awkward phrasing.
- hardlianotion 3y ago
  It is correct, but phrased to be surprising.
- dtgriscom 3y ago
  Not a fan of that comma, but it's probably there to make the best of an awkward sentence structure.
- mminer237 3y ago
  The biggest problem is that random comma.
- foundart 3y ago
  If the intent was to communicate a pause, I think an ellipsis would be the way to go. "We agree that the worst person to be stuck in traffic ... is you." One source for this is item 7 at https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/ellipses-definition-uses https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/ellipses-definition-...
- prmoustache 3y ago
  One would argue that there is no such thing as being stuck in traffic. You are the traffic and thus part of the problem. So it is not that badly phrased. ;-)
ohadron 3y ago
This is how Waze started.
dghughes 3y ago
Isn't this basically the Traffic part of Google maps? Google Maps > Layers > Traffic (enable)
- pbmonster 3y ago
  Well, yes. But not from google or from apple (which also has live traffic), but instead on top of OSM.
atbpaca 3y ago
Seems like not available to download in the US (for iOS).
- xorl 3y ago
  Same issue.
- unstatusthequo 3y ago
  Despite listing USA as traffic data available country.
doodlebugging 3y ago
Thanks for the link to this app. I had not heard of this one and normally don't use navigation apps because I don't like distractions while I'm driving. I do run into situations where it would be great to have current traffic information so that I can avoid getting caught up in someone else's malfunction though. I usually ask a passenger to check traffic if it looks dicey down the road or just wing it if I'm driving alone. I read through each of the pages and found the website to be easy to navigate and found descriptions of features to be pretty good. I did find a couple things on one page that I think could be clarified. Both are on the "AI Dashcam" page. The text in one of the subheadings should be changed since there is a pretty common grammar error in one sentence. Under the subheading "Forward Collision Warning" where the sentence reads - "When a vehicle that is driving in front of you breaks abruptly, a quick response may be required." Change "breaks" to "brakes" and I think it makes more sense. English homonyms got you there. It's very common to see breaks used when the writer means brakes. The other thing on this page is just something that reads funny to me. Under the subheading "Advanced Driver Assistance notifications on Apple Watch." there is a sentence that really puts the whole app situation in context. The second sentence is great - "First, install Magic Earth for Apple Watch and add a Magic Earth complication to your Watch face. " I wonder whether "complication" should have been "application" or whether the developers actually see this app on an Apple Watch as a complication like I do. Pretty funny stuff. I sent a link to one of my kids who is currently traveling to see what they say about it. They are in the US and from other comments the app may not be available here on iOS today but they will check it out when it is available.
- heystefan 3y ago
  Complication is not a typo here btw. "A complication is an element on the watch face that displays information or allows you quick access to an app by tapping on it."
  - doodlebugging 3y ago
    Thank you. I obviously did not know that but it makes sense and certainly fits.
fredsmith219 3y ago
Not available on the iOS app store in the US, according to my iphone..
oh_sigh 3y ago
It's strange that they're making a default feature in Google maps for like 10 years seem like a magical idea they just invented.
- stevehawk 3y ago
  That's the cycle of software. Remember when Google Maps was about the mapping and finding places? Now it's about reviews, photos, online ordering, the menu, price point, and everything else. Less feature filled apps will now move in to replace the void they left. Rinse repeat. (see: every note taking / todo app ever)
tamimio 3y ago
Not available in Canadian app store either.
V__ 3y ago
No one likes to sit in traffic, but I do wonder if such tools don't create too many additional problems, by increased traffic on minor roads [1]. Suddenly small roads, have heavy traffic, because it's 1-2min faster. Leading to more road wear, circumventing road hierarchy etc. [1] https://citymonitor.ai/community/neighbourhoods/google-maps-local-traffic https://citymonitor.ai/community/neighbourhoods/google-maps-...
- rompic 3y ago
  two things come to my mind: - use a capacity / slot based model to avoid heavy traffic on small roads - work together with cities / police etc. to define traffic strategies especially for events. that's what we do at graphmasters with NUNAV: https://www.nunav.net/trafficStrategies https://www.nunav.net/trafficStrategies
the_third_wave 3y ago
Somewhat off-topic but why oh why do nearly all app developers who have things on both Android as well as iOS insist on using an iPhone to show their app and also insist on saying the app is available 'on iOS and Android' instead of ordering these alphabetically? Does Apple give some incentive to do so or some punishment if it is done the other way around? This is a free app on both Android as well as iOS, it targets those who know what OSM is and as such feels like more of a fit for those running AOSP-derived distributions than closed-source walled-garden iOS yet still they advertise Apple-first. I realise that Apple is bigger than Android in the USA but the world is so much bigger than the USA and Android is so much bigger than Apple in most other locations. Android devices also offer more opportunities to show off the product with their bigger screens and less prominent or absent notches, so much so that seeing the Android version next to the iOS one - they show one Android device on the bottom of the screen, hidden behind an iPhone - makes the iOS version seem rather cramped and cluttered. I can understand this when they're specifically advertising to the paying iOS crowd but it just seems out of place elsewhere.

raybb 3y ago

Does Magic Earth contribute data upstream to OSM in any way? Like making it easy for users to report issue?

jasonlfunk 3y ago

My iphone is telling me that it’s not available in my region (USA).

OGWhales 3y ago
I emailed them last week to ask about that and they said it’s currently only available in Europe, but they’d hope to have it released in the Americas this week if all goes well. This is on iOS.
- KoftaBob 3y ago
  Did they say why it's not available in the US? I installed it a year or so ago before it was removed from the US app store, which is why I still have it on my phone.
richiebful1 3y ago
That's strange. It works well on Android in the USA

admaiora 3y ago

A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me. You can have a paid product but open source the project.

rglullis 3y ago
Is there a just-as-good FOSS alternative? Or at least one that could catch up if it receives more support?
OGWhales 3y ago
An open-source alternative is Organic Maps: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps
- kzrdude 3y ago
  Does it have live traffic information? It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established. OsmAnd does not (to my knowledge) have any live traffic info.
  - benoliver999 3y ago
    No
  - OGWhales 3y ago
    Unfortunately it does not have live traffic data like the app it is forked from, maps.me. Hopefully they add it, but there aren’t many good open traffic projects that exist, so they’d need to rely on crowd sourced data like Magic Earth is doing and I’m not sure how well that would work.
  - hk__2 3y ago
    > It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established OrganicMaps is a fork of Maps.me, which is very well known among the general public: 55k ratings on the Apple Store and 50M downloads on the Play Store for Maps.me vs. 1.8k and 10M for OsmAnd. Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM, whereas with OsmAnd it’s clear right from the name.
    - kzrdude 3y ago

filleokus 3y ago

I wonder how many users you need in a given metro area to get resonable accuracy? Probably not that many, but seems like a tricky problem to boot strap. Is the point to be an non-google alternative to Google Maps on Android? (On iOS as well of course, but there I guess you have almost no option but to trust Apple, and can use Apple Maps). Little bit weird that the App Store listing says they are not collecting any data when they have this crowd sourcing of data? Is this the same General Magic as the one publishing the app? https://www.generalmagic.io https://www.generalmagic.io EDIT: Probably not the same: This seems to be the company behind it https://www.magiclane.com/web/about/ https://www.magiclane.com/web/about/ if you sleuth round a bit. Then the pricing model of free makes more sense at least. EDIT2: Or maybe not at all, the street addresses don't match up. Enough playing internet detective for this coffee break, back to work.

NGRhodes 3y ago
You are right, on the about page: >Team > >We are a team of 46 – young yet experienced. The founders of Magic Lane also build the very first route planner which ran on the Mac and PC in the 1990, formerly known as Route 66. Route 66 was also the first to release navigation solutions for Nokia, Samsung and HTC mobile phones. With over 30 years of experience in the Maps, Location & Navigation industry, the founders decided a few years ago to rebuild the entire software from scratch. The aim was to do this without compromise, with privacy and three other basic principles in mind: the platform must operate on minimal hardware, be fully functional offline, and be easy to integrate. The development project was carried out under the name General Magic, with the navigation app Magic Earth as a testing ground for Android and iOS

munhitsu 3y ago

I wonder what their business model is

rompic 3y ago

Shameless, but related, plug for NUNAV (I work for the company behind it, but not on this product): If you are located in Europe you might like to try NUNAV Navigation as well, which uses a collaborative routing based approach to distribute traffic. iphone: https://apps.apple.com/de/app/nunav-navigation/id1193133974?itsct=apps_box_badge https://apps.apple.com/de/app/nunav-navigation/id1193133974?... android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nunav.play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nunav.play

exikyut 3y ago
Mild expression of curiosity, since I'm not sure if this'll be useful for me (I'm in AU): this is listed as "requires Android 6+", yet shows "Does not work on your device" for every single device listed, including my main phone which definitely isn't that old. But it's not showing "not available in your country".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rompic 3y ago
  thanks for the feedback. I'll check with the developers.
rsolva 3y ago
Hey, this looks great! The only thing I miss is an option to add multiple destinations or search for gas stations, shops etc on an ongoing route.
- rompic 3y ago
  It's on a very long list. Afaik it does exist on ios, but via-routing has low usage so it's not a high priority atm.
btzs 3y ago
Is NUNAV based on OSM data?

reboot81 3y ago

So I can go places, without the oogling.

leokeba 3y ago

If the developers are around, I would like to ask a simple question : Does this app only use realtime data for calculating ETA and routes, or does it learn some statistical regularities in the traffic patterns to make predictions ? I'm asking because this is the main weakness of all similar apps that I know of, they always give you an estimation using only the current state of traffic on the whole journey, so if you are going towards a busy city at peak traffic time it may add one or two hours to the ETA even if you are still 5 hours away and everything will be gone by the time you get there. Obviously the reverse situation is even more annoying, I live in the Paris area, and when I leave home around 4pm and ask google maps an itinerary, it may tell me I'm only 30 minutes away, but 15 minutes later shit hits the fan and I end up an hour late on my schedule. Obviously after a while you start learning the traffic patterns and plan accordingly, which is okay I guess, but we're in 2023, how can google not be up to the task of correctly predicting a traffic spike when it's regular on a daily or weekly basis ? Is that just too much data / compute for them ? If anybody has a clue, I'm curious.

PcChip 3y ago
I thought the "arrive at" feature of Google maps took into account usual traffic patterns at that time of day?
- alistairSH 3y ago
  In theory. However it appears to underestimate traffic delays for DC->OBX beach traffic. On a summer Saturday morning, that’s a 6-7 hour drive. Or worse. Apple Maps has it closer to 5-5:30 for most of the day. Google gives a range from 4:45-6:30 - 4:45 is basically impossible any time of day and year but 6:30 is ballpark-ish if you don’t hit a major traffic jam. But maybe that’s a worst-case route.
  - hedora 3y ago
    Here We Go is frighteningly accurate for SF bay area traffic predictions. (E.g., within 2 minutes, driving between south bay and north San Francisco, with traffic). It must be using statistical models to predict future traffic. It is often pre-loaded on European car console units so you may be using it without realizing it. It’s free for iOS and Android, and works offline (offline support is the killer feature for me).

hexmiles 3y ago

Off-topic question from non-native English speaker, on the website is present this phrase; "We agree that the worst person to be stuck in traffic, is you.", I instinctively read it as them calling me the worst person, which is clearly not the case, and I understand what they mean, but I still feel like this phrasing is off...

mnky9800n 3y ago
I suppose it is supposed to be tongue in cheek but as a native english speaker i also find it awkward even though it might be correct.
dave881 3y ago
As a native speaker, this is awkward phrasing.
hardlianotion 3y ago
It is correct, but phrased to be surprising.
dtgriscom 3y ago
Not a fan of that comma, but it's probably there to make the best of an awkward sentence structure.
mminer237 3y ago
The biggest problem is that random comma.
foundart 3y ago
If the intent was to communicate a pause, I think an ellipsis would be the way to go. "We agree that the worst person to be stuck in traffic ... is you." One source for this is item 7 at https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/ellipses-definition-uses https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/ellipses-definition-...
prmoustache 3y ago
One would argue that there is no such thing as being stuck in traffic. You are the traffic and thus part of the problem. So it is not that badly phrased. ;-)

ohadron 3y ago

This is how Waze started.

dghughes 3y ago

Isn't this basically the Traffic part of Google maps? Google Maps > Layers > Traffic (enable)

pbmonster 3y ago
Well, yes. But not from google or from apple (which also has live traffic), but instead on top of OSM.

atbpaca 3y ago

Seems like not available to download in the US (for iOS).

xorl 3y ago
Same issue.
unstatusthequo 3y ago
Despite listing USA as traffic data available country.

doodlebugging 3y ago

Thanks for the link to this app. I had not heard of this one and normally don't use navigation apps because I don't like distractions while I'm driving. I do run into situations where it would be great to have current traffic information so that I can avoid getting caught up in someone else's malfunction though. I usually ask a passenger to check traffic if it looks dicey down the road or just wing it if I'm driving alone. I read through each of the pages and found the website to be easy to navigate and found descriptions of features to be pretty good. I did find a couple things on one page that I think could be clarified. Both are on the "AI Dashcam" page. The text in one of the subheadings should be changed since there is a pretty common grammar error in one sentence. Under the subheading "Forward Collision Warning" where the sentence reads - "When a vehicle that is driving in front of you breaks abruptly, a quick response may be required." Change "breaks" to "brakes" and I think it makes more sense. English homonyms got you there. It's very common to see breaks used when the writer means brakes. The other thing on this page is just something that reads funny to me. Under the subheading "Advanced Driver Assistance notifications on Apple Watch." there is a sentence that really puts the whole app situation in context. The second sentence is great - "First, install Magic Earth for Apple Watch and add a Magic Earth complication to your Watch face. " I wonder whether "complication" should have been "application" or whether the developers actually see this app on an Apple Watch as a complication like I do. Pretty funny stuff. I sent a link to one of my kids who is currently traveling to see what they say about it. They are in the US and from other comments the app may not be available here on iOS today but they will check it out when it is available.

heystefan 3y ago
Complication is not a typo here btw. "A complication is an element on the watch face that displays information or allows you quick access to an app by tapping on it."
- doodlebugging 3y ago
  Thank you. I obviously did not know that but it makes sense and certainly fits.

fredsmith219 3y ago

Not available on the iOS app store in the US, according to my iphone..

oh_sigh 3y ago

It's strange that they're making a default feature in Google maps for like 10 years seem like a magical idea they just invented.

stevehawk 3y ago
That's the cycle of software. Remember when Google Maps was about the mapping and finding places? Now it's about reviews, photos, online ordering, the menu, price point, and everything else. Less feature filled apps will now move in to replace the void they left. Rinse repeat. (see: every note taking / todo app ever)

tamimio 3y ago

Not available in Canadian app store either.

V__ 3y ago

No one likes to sit in traffic, but I do wonder if such tools don't create too many additional problems, by increased traffic on minor roads [1]. Suddenly small roads, have heavy traffic, because it's 1-2min faster. Leading to more road wear, circumventing road hierarchy etc. [1] https://citymonitor.ai/community/neighbourhoods/google-maps-local-traffic https://citymonitor.ai/community/neighbourhoods/google-maps-...

rompic 3y ago
two things come to my mind: - use a capacity / slot based model to avoid heavy traffic on small roads - work together with cities / police etc. to define traffic strategies especially for events. that's what we do at graphmasters with NUNAV: https://www.nunav.net/trafficStrategies https://www.nunav.net/trafficStrategies

the_third_wave 3y ago

Somewhat off-topic but why oh why do nearly all app developers who have things on both Android as well as iOS insist on using an iPhone to show their app and also insist on saying the app is available 'on iOS and Android' instead of ordering these alphabetically? Does Apple give some incentive to do so or some punishment if it is done the other way around? This is a free app on both Android as well as iOS, it targets those who know what OSM is and as such feels like more of a fit for those running AOSP-derived distributions than closed-source walled-garden iOS yet still they advertise Apple-first. I realise that Apple is bigger than Android in the USA but the world is so much bigger than the USA and Android is so much bigger than Apple in most other locations. Android devices also offer more opportunities to show off the product with their bigger screens and less prominent or absent notches, so much so that seeing the Android version next to the iOS one - they show one Android device on the bottom of the screen, hidden behind an iPhone - makes the iOS version seem rather cramped and cluttered. I can understand this when they're specifically advertising to the paying iOS crowd but it just seems out of place elsewhere.