5 ms·

It does seem extremely elegant relative to the very tiny amount of resources a single cancer cell has to work with. I'm not sure why there was so much talk abo

It does seem extremely elegant relative to the very tiny amount of resources a single cancer cell has to work with. I'm not sure why there was so much talk about 'nanomachines' some years ago when there are literally millions of pre-existing examples that are so vastly more sophisticated.

Terr_ 3y ago
To recycle a comment: > Oh, I agree, imagine a "grey goo" apocalypse, where uncontrolled and hyper-aggressive nanotechnology spreads everywhere in a unceasing orgy of consumption and replication. Mutating according to its own unknowable logic, it eventually it covers the land in an inhospitable blanket of massive crawling megastructures and inscrutable malign hive-minds! > ... Oh, wait, that happened -- It's us. :P
- noduerme 3y ago
  This line of thinking about humans is exceptionally noxious when it gives a pass to AI or nanobots or anything other than human that might exhibit the real behavior that humans are hyperbolically accused of. That being said, the same logic applies: Evolutionary advantages lead to outcomes that don't get a fuck about what you or I want. So far, we have no examples of monocultural life gaining a permanent advantage over whatever evolves next, at least not on a geological scale. But my response to this is always some variation of: If you hate people so much, why do you have kids?
  - FooBarWidget 3y ago
    How do you know these "humanity is a virus" type of people have kids?
    - noduerme 3y ago
      I never know that for sure, but it's a safe guess. It's become a bit of a hilarious trope here in Portland. The people who are always complaining about the rest of society's wanton disregard for the environment are the ones who aren't riding the bus. Their kids are the reason they're so worried about climate change, which is caused by overpopulation, you see. Nothing racist or Malthusian. They're shuttling their kids to soccer practice in a Subaru, how much more eco-conscious could they get? And when dad puts the kids down, he gets online and complains about how everyone else's consumption is ruining the world. When you talk to other people who don't have kids, they always make sure to let you know they don't.
vibrio 3y ago
IMO, “Single cancer cell” isn’t really a the unit. Solid tumors act more like a mini organ with different types of cells having roles: driving blood supply, immune suppression, or enabling and executing metastasis are examples. Cancer isn’t sentient, but life finds a way. Fu*k cancer.
- zer8k 3y ago
  I am not an oncologist but I thought that metastasis was more related to a tumor growing too close to a major blood highway. If some of those cells that like to grow out of control get into that system they end up getting lodged all over the place. It seems less like "enabling and executing" and more like it just grows and grows until it leaks out. The ability for tumor cells to suppress the immune system however is fascinating. It's almost like an alien.
  - vibrio 3y ago
    Cancers actually drive blood vessel growth into the tumors to feed themselves. I’m sure they leverage that as part of dissemination. Different primary tumors (eg Prostate, breast, lung) have preferred sets of metastasis sites that are not always explained by where they get stuck due to getting into the blood supply. Even getting into the blood supply requires functions of degrading extra cellular matrix, evading immune surveillance, getting out of blood vessels and “setting up camp” at the news destination, and those requirements can be cancer and/or met site preferential. Much of the immune suppression mechanisms are actually regulated systems normal cells use to prevent runaway inflammation. Cancer finds that function and highjacks it to “hide”. Conversely (to further illustrate complexity), some cancers use aspects inflammation as ”fuel” to drive tumor growth especially early in the cancer. I do agree- it is all truly fascinating.with that said: Fu*k cancer.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      What I’ve never understood is how all this complex cooperative behavior emerges out of a relatively small number of mutations. I get that these are all repurposing of existing mechanisms, but still the overall coordination seems so much more purposeful than something that would happen with a few initial mutations and then some further selection. Particularly things like metastasis, which sounds like a many-stage process that would be hard to spontaneously evolve.

Terr_ 3y ago

To recycle a comment: > Oh, I agree, imagine a "grey goo" apocalypse, where uncontrolled and hyper-aggressive nanotechnology spreads everywhere in a unceasing orgy of consumption and replication. Mutating according to its own unknowable logic, it eventually it covers the land in an inhospitable blanket of massive crawling megastructures and inscrutable malign hive-minds! > ... Oh, wait, that happened -- It's us. :P

noduerme 3y ago
This line of thinking about humans is exceptionally noxious when it gives a pass to AI or nanobots or anything other than human that might exhibit the real behavior that humans are hyperbolically accused of. That being said, the same logic applies: Evolutionary advantages lead to outcomes that don't get a fuck about what you or I want. So far, we have no examples of monocultural life gaining a permanent advantage over whatever evolves next, at least not on a geological scale. But my response to this is always some variation of: If you hate people so much, why do you have kids?
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  How do you know these "humanity is a virus" type of people have kids?
  - noduerme 3y ago
    I never know that for sure, but it's a safe guess. It's become a bit of a hilarious trope here in Portland. The people who are always complaining about the rest of society's wanton disregard for the environment are the ones who aren't riding the bus. Their kids are the reason they're so worried about climate change, which is caused by overpopulation, you see. Nothing racist or Malthusian. They're shuttling their kids to soccer practice in a Subaru, how much more eco-conscious could they get? And when dad puts the kids down, he gets online and complains about how everyone else's consumption is ruining the world. When you talk to other people who don't have kids, they always make sure to let you know they don't.

vibrio 3y ago

IMO, “Single cancer cell” isn’t really a the unit. Solid tumors act more like a mini organ with different types of cells having roles: driving blood supply, immune suppression, or enabling and executing metastasis are examples. Cancer isn’t sentient, but life finds a way. Fu*k cancer.

zer8k 3y ago
I am not an oncologist but I thought that metastasis was more related to a tumor growing too close to a major blood highway. If some of those cells that like to grow out of control get into that system they end up getting lodged all over the place. It seems less like "enabling and executing" and more like it just grows and grows until it leaks out. The ability for tumor cells to suppress the immune system however is fascinating. It's almost like an alien.
- vibrio 3y ago
  Cancers actually drive blood vessel growth into the tumors to feed themselves. I’m sure they leverage that as part of dissemination. Different primary tumors (eg Prostate, breast, lung) have preferred sets of metastasis sites that are not always explained by where they get stuck due to getting into the blood supply. Even getting into the blood supply requires functions of degrading extra cellular matrix, evading immune surveillance, getting out of blood vessels and “setting up camp” at the news destination, and those requirements can be cancer and/or met site preferential. Much of the immune suppression mechanisms are actually regulated systems normal cells use to prevent runaway inflammation. Cancer finds that function and highjacks it to “hide”. Conversely (to further illustrate complexity), some cancers use aspects inflammation as ”fuel” to drive tumor growth especially early in the cancer. I do agree- it is all truly fascinating.with that said: Fu*k cancer.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    What I’ve never understood is how all this complex cooperative behavior emerges out of a relatively small number of mutations. I get that these are all repurposing of existing mechanisms, but still the overall coordination seems so much more purposeful than something that would happen with a few initial mutations and then some further selection. Particularly things like metastasis, which sounds like a many-stage process that would be hard to spontaneously evolve.