7 ms·

The anti-union messages in North American work culture were so effective it takes an incredible amount of abuse before a workforce actually seeks out a union.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
For better or worse, we are at that point. Support of unions amongst the public is at a 57 year high, historically speaking. Very exciting to see organization efforts ramping. As the kids says, “go go go!” https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-highest-point-1965.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-hi...
- Melatonic 3y ago
  Robber Barons are back and Labor is having a moment. History repeats
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. For me, the worst thing is: as a German, I grew up with "never again" and "at least us Germans learned from our own history, even if barely anyone else did" - and it's all been bullshit. We've learned nothing, we forgot everything once the last living reminders and witnesses from 1933-1945 died.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. Your definition of Fascism is... interesting...
      - cycomanic 3y ago
        Maybe saying it the other way around would have made it clearer. The ones in economic power have always (in case there was strong fascist movements) been in favor of fascism. That's not an opinion but a historical fact. The Nazis in Germany were supported by large industrialists (Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben), how made a killing (quite literally). Similarly in Italy and Spain, the Fascists were supported by the big capitalists.
        Alupis 3y ago
        I think you will find out big industry supports any party/movement that is currently in power. Observe the war machine that was the USSR, or even modern day China. It's self preservation, more than anything. Cross the powers that be, and you'll find hard times ahead (Jack Ma...). That's true regardless of political ideology. My original point was some people's definition of fascism is absurd given historical or modern contexts. But it's a fun whip to crack.
        cycomanic 3y ago
        The industrialist supported the Nazis, Fascists etc getting into power. That was certainly not the case in Russia or China. Saying that industrialists supported the regime in the Soviet Union is also a bit rich, considering that they essentially did not exist. So what is a correct definition of fascism in your opinion? Are you contesting that the Nazis in Germany, Mussolini in Italy or Franco in Spain were Facists? The whole point the previous poster made was essentially all of these got into power with significant support by the ruling economic powers.
        Alupis 3y ago
        > That was certainly not the case in Russia or China I see we're going to ignore history then...
        Apocryphon 3y ago
    - gruez 3y ago
      > And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. That's more to do with authoritarianism (ie. a strong state) than just fascism. In such a political climate, you're forced to be cozy with the state, because of how powerful it is. Doing so can get you favors with the government (eg. lucrative contracts, favorable legislation/foreign policy), and not doing so can result in your competitors outcompeting you or getting investigated and sent to the gulag.
      - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        > authoritarianism (ie. a strong state) > you're forced to be cozy with the state, because of how powerful it is Indeed we learbed nothing Strong corporations can play the same role, they can create authoritarianisn.
    - midoridensha 3y ago
      >we forgot everything once the last living reminders and witnesses from 1933-1945 died. This is why I really wonder about how society might change if humans figure out how to give themselves biological immortality.
- mlinsey 3y ago
  support in opinion polls, maybe. but actual union membership continues to fall and is at historic lows. Maybe if the current wave of strikes score some high-profile wins, that could start to reverse. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/union-membership-rate-fell-by-0-2-percentage-point-to-10-1-percent-in-2022.htm#:~:text=The%20union%20membership%20rate%20was,membership%20rate%20was%2020.1%20percent https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/union-membership-rate-fell....
Alupis 3y ago
> The anti-union messages in North American work culture were so effective it takes an incredible amount of abuse before a workforce actually seeks out a union It's more complicated than that. For starters, fewer industries need unions these days. Unions don't help most office-work and white-collar careers, where pay is on-average sufficient or high, and hours are standardized already (nobody in Accounting or HR is working 12 hour days on the routine). Additionally, in some sectors, unions are a net-negative. Take software for example, where folks routinely make bananas money for regular work. In those environments, unions typically protect unproductive peers, and limit high-performer's maximum compensation. Union does not always mean better... As an aside, people do need to learn to say no to work. Just because you want to work on say, video games or VFX doesn't mean you should accept a job that compels you to work horrendous hours for little pay. Just say no and move on... the market forces will correct and adjust accordingly out of necessity. AI will not replace creative work anytime in the near future - these folks are needed but they accept the abuse and therefore there is no market force to correct.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Just because you want to work on say, video games or VFX doesn't mean you should accept a job that compels you to work horrendous hours for little pay. Just say no and move on... the market forces will correct and adjust accordingly out of necessity. Yeah, they'll go offshore instead while you try to navigate an intentionally kafkaesque maze of red tape to apply for fucking food stamps.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > try to navigate an intentionally kafkaesque maze of red tape to apply for fucking food stamps This is a bizarre, and unrealistic take. Realities are, so long as there's a zillion capable people willing to step in and replace you with a moment's notice, then your job will have downward pressure on compensation. However, just because you can't get a good paying job in VFX doesn't mean you're now doomed to food stamps. There's no reality where that makes any sense...
    - 3y ago
ETH_start 3y ago
The worst thing to ever happen to workers, short of a socialist revolution or major war, is unions, so the antipathy, to the extent that it exists, is fully justified, and not enough.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Anything thats wver done for workers is bad for workers War is peace ignorance is strength
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    Blood letting was done for the patient and killed patients.
mardifoufs 3y ago
How unionized are European VFX workers? How much better are working conditions there for them?

toomuchtodo 3y ago

For better or worse, we are at that point. Support of unions amongst the public is at a 57 year high, historically speaking. Very exciting to see organization efforts ramping. As the kids says, “go go go!” https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-highest-point-1965.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-hi...

Melatonic 3y ago
Robber Barons are back and Labor is having a moment. History repeats
- mschuster91 3y ago
  And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. For me, the worst thing is: as a German, I grew up with "never again" and "at least us Germans learned from our own history, even if barely anyone else did" - and it's all been bullshit. We've learned nothing, we forgot everything once the last living reminders and witnesses from 1933-1945 died.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. Your definition of Fascism is... interesting...
    - cycomanic 3y ago
      Maybe saying it the other way around would have made it clearer. The ones in economic power have always (in case there was strong fascist movements) been in favor of fascism. That's not an opinion but a historical fact. The Nazis in Germany were supported by large industrialists (Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben), how made a killing (quite literally). Similarly in Italy and Spain, the Fascists were supported by the big capitalists.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        I think you will find out big industry supports any party/movement that is currently in power. Observe the war machine that was the USSR, or even modern day China. It's self preservation, more than anything. Cross the powers that be, and you'll find hard times ahead (Jack Ma...). That's true regardless of political ideology. My original point was some people's definition of fascism is absurd given historical or modern contexts. But it's a fun whip to crack.
        cycomanic 3y ago
        The industrialist supported the Nazis, Fascists etc getting into power. That was certainly not the case in Russia or China. Saying that industrialists supported the regime in the Soviet Union is also a bit rich, considering that they essentially did not exist. So what is a correct definition of fascism in your opinion? Are you contesting that the Nazis in Germany, Mussolini in Italy or Franco in Spain were Facists? The whole point the previous poster made was essentially all of these got into power with significant support by the ruling economic powers.
        Alupis 3y ago
        > That was certainly not the case in Russia or China I see we're going to ignore history then...
        Apocryphon 3y ago
  - gruez 3y ago
    > And IMHO it's not surprising that fascism is back as well. Fascism has historically always been in the favor of those in economic power. That's more to do with authoritarianism (ie. a strong state) than just fascism. In such a political climate, you're forced to be cozy with the state, because of how powerful it is. Doing so can get you favors with the government (eg. lucrative contracts, favorable legislation/foreign policy), and not doing so can result in your competitors outcompeting you or getting investigated and sent to the gulag.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > authoritarianism (ie. a strong state) > you're forced to be cozy with the state, because of how powerful it is Indeed we learbed nothing Strong corporations can play the same role, they can create authoritarianisn.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    >we forgot everything once the last living reminders and witnesses from 1933-1945 died. This is why I really wonder about how society might change if humans figure out how to give themselves biological immortality.
mlinsey 3y ago
support in opinion polls, maybe. but actual union membership continues to fall and is at historic lows. Maybe if the current wave of strikes score some high-profile wins, that could start to reverse. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/union-membership-rate-fell-by-0-2-percentage-point-to-10-1-percent-in-2022.htm#:~:text=The%20union%20membership%20rate%20was,membership%20rate%20was%2020.1%20percent https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/union-membership-rate-fell....

Alupis 3y ago

> The anti-union messages in North American work culture were so effective it takes an incredible amount of abuse before a workforce actually seeks out a union It's more complicated than that. For starters, fewer industries need unions these days. Unions don't help most office-work and white-collar careers, where pay is on-average sufficient or high, and hours are standardized already (nobody in Accounting or HR is working 12 hour days on the routine). Additionally, in some sectors, unions are a net-negative. Take software for example, where folks routinely make bananas money for regular work. In those environments, unions typically protect unproductive peers, and limit high-performer's maximum compensation. Union does not always mean better... As an aside, people do need to learn to say no to work. Just because you want to work on say, video games or VFX doesn't mean you should accept a job that compels you to work horrendous hours for little pay. Just say no and move on... the market forces will correct and adjust accordingly out of necessity. AI will not replace creative work anytime in the near future - these folks are needed but they accept the abuse and therefore there is no market force to correct.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Just because you want to work on say, video games or VFX doesn't mean you should accept a job that compels you to work horrendous hours for little pay. Just say no and move on... the market forces will correct and adjust accordingly out of necessity. Yeah, they'll go offshore instead while you try to navigate an intentionally kafkaesque maze of red tape to apply for fucking food stamps.
- Alupis 3y ago
  > try to navigate an intentionally kafkaesque maze of red tape to apply for fucking food stamps This is a bizarre, and unrealistic take. Realities are, so long as there's a zillion capable people willing to step in and replace you with a moment's notice, then your job will have downward pressure on compensation. However, just because you can't get a good paying job in VFX doesn't mean you're now doomed to food stamps. There's no reality where that makes any sense...
  - 3y ago

ETH_start 3y ago

The worst thing to ever happen to workers, short of a socialist revolution or major war, is unions, so the antipathy, to the extent that it exists, is fully justified, and not enough.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
Anything thats wver done for workers is bad for workers War is peace ignorance is strength
- ETH_start 3y ago
  Blood letting was done for the patient and killed patients.

mardifoufs 3y ago

How unionized are European VFX workers? How much better are working conditions there for them?