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Las Vegas approves 68 miles of underground transportation tunnels
- kiba 3y agoSo, we're doing trains badly. I am more interested if the Boring's TBM technology actually dig any faster.
- glogla 3y agoYes, I am looking forward to seeing this on some engineering disaster channel in few years.
- osigurdson 3y agoWait, what? You want to see a disaster occur?
- jasonlotito 3y agoThe context makes it clear that the parent means the car tunnel itself is the disaster. The video on the disaster is going to discuss why the tunnel is a failure. The project will be a disaster.
- Macha 3y agoOften these are less about actual disasters and more like the brandenburg airport, where a lot of money (and more than originally expected) is spent for very little gains.
- glogla 3y agoBrandenburg airport, I think we might watch the same podcast (with slides).
- nozonozon 3y agoNo, the commenter believes a disaster will occur and is looking forward to seeing evidence that their predictive ability is accurate.
- vman81 3y agoI'm reading that to mean a disaster like the Brandenburg airport in Berlin
- sneak 3y agoDoing trains badly is better than not doing underground trains (or any trains) at all.
- pavel_lishin 3y agoI'd argue that (a), it's not, and (b) we're not doing trains at all. It's just another road for cars, this one's just underground.
- osigurdson 3y agoIt is interesting to me that so many are hung up on form factor. It is like is has gotta look like a traditional NYC or London subway train (complete with gum stuck under the seat I expect) or it can't possibly be any good. It should just be about speed and amortized cost per unit distance.
- grishka 3y agoThe bulk of the cost of building a subway is in the tunnel construction. Could as well retrofit the tunnels with tracks for real trains later, when everyone except Elon realizes how little sense the original idea makes.
- AlexandrB 3y agoDon't know how easy that will be. Tunnels built for cars can have much tighter turns than a train/subway tunnel. Unless the tunnels are being planned with future conversion in mind they might need significant rework to be able to carry a train.
- ashurov 3y agowhat a crazy stupid idea... thunderf00t [1] already outlined why all of this is a horrible idea. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ezF7NmwQZs&ab_channel=Thunderf00t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ezF7NmwQZs&ab_channel=Thund...
- idontwantthis 3y agoThey basically chose the least effective, most expensive option. The option they’ve already proven is a failure on a small scale with convention center.
- glogla 3y agoWhich I am sure will be used as a proof that infrastructure investment into anything else but cars is a bad idea, in due time.
- 3LazTjBv-f 3y agoSpeaking of expensive - if they stop the service (or even never start it) - who will maintain the tunnels? Looks like huge liability. Would refilling it with some material actually work (in terms of possible surface buildings damage)?
- crmd 3y agoThe quotes from Steve Hill and Mayor Goodman at the end are the real story.
- jsf01 3y agoThe current Vegas loop is a fun little novelty, like a roller coaster, but it’s so bad as a model for transportation. If we’re already digging the tunnels PLEASE just make a subway. The teslas are so awkward, have to be steered in this small and curved space, require a driver, only fit a few passengers, and on and on. Vegas is in desperate need of higher volume train transportation between the airport, the Strip, and downtown—but I’m afraid this isn’t going to cut it.
- malablaster 3y agoHow is Vegas in desperate need of transportation between the airport and the strip? Of all the airports I’ve flown to Vegas was the closest to the downtown core and had the least traffic.
- vikingerik 3y agoYou still have to use a taxi/rideshare service, or rent a car. Compared to other cities, those methods are pretty cheap and accessible in Vegas... but it's still expensive and inconvenient compared to a real railway transit system.
- ghaff 3y agoPretty much. Although I'm not sure how useful it would be to have a public transit system from the airport even in the best case. Given how huge the casino complexes are, you'd pretty much need a stop at every casino (and you still might have a long walk to the front desk as is the case with the little loop train that already exists).
- achates 3y agoIt's not really more expensive. In Denver it's $10.50 per person to take the train from the airport to downtown. At the time of this post an Uber from LAS to the Bellagio is $11. If you have two people then the Uber is about half the cost per person of the train in Denver.
- 3y ago
- kristopolous 3y agoThis is what you get when ideologies of hyperindividualism are presumed as natural law. It sounds like something out of some 80s lampooning cyberpunk movie. The whole premise of cities is efficiency through collaborative infrastructure. It's really wild how badly we do it.
- ajross 3y ago> This is what you get when ideologies of hyperindividualism are presumed as natural law. It sounds like something out of some 80s lampooning cyberpunk movie It... what? How do you get from the six sentence linked article to that?[1]. Can't it just be a silly boondoggle? I mean: how does public funding of transportation infrastructure (however silly) even remotely follow from "hyperindividualism"? [1] I mean, I know how you got there. It's got nothing to do with tunnels and everything to do with how fun it is to hate the nutjob that runs the tunnel company.
- kristopolous 3y agoNo it's got nothing to do with Elon Musk or Tesla. There's efficient systems that already exist to solve these problems but there's ideologies that act as blinders and keep the better solutions shelved as impractical or facing erected roadblocks like "where's the money" When Tesla decides they don't care about it any more, then the tax payer becomes responsible. This is the classic "public-private partnership" where the responsibilities and liabilities are on the tax payer while the profits and power are privatized. It's a raw deal. The most famous example of how this works is Conrail, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrail https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrail It was initially private until it couldn't be profitable and then it became public until it was profitable because the public stewardship was trying to do a service and not simply milk the consumer, then they privatized it again when it was profitable. So when it loses money it's our responsibility when it makes money it's their benefit and we don't see any of it. It's totally insane but we have ideologies that demand it to be this way so that's what we get
- fullshark 3y ago
- abduhl 3y agoQuotes like this really make me wonder about the people who say them in the moment. Do they realize how ridiculous the words they are saying sound when put in this order? “It’s not like a subway where you stop at a bunch of stops along the way,” said attorney Stephanie Allen, of law firm Kaempfer Crowell, who spoke on Boring Company’s behalf. “It goes directly from Point A to Point B and saves a lot of time in doing so.”
- weberer 3y agoIt sounds right to me. What part are you having trouble with?
- ghaff 3y agoI have no idea what the Point A (except maybe the airport) and Point B would be in the context of Vegas given there's no real downtown in the sense of many cities.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago[flagged]
- melling 3y agoThis is embarrassing. Americans hate choo choo trains. Can we please invent cost effective low-speed maglev trains. China is moving in the right direction: https://youtu.be/9u4lG0HuICg https://youtu.be/9u4lG0HuICg
- fortran77 3y agoSee if there's an adult literacy class in your area! Have a friend who can read look at this website: https://proliteracy.org/ https://proliteracy.org/
- manuelabeledo 3y agoIsn't the point of maglev to be able to go faster? > China is moving in the right direction: https://youtu.be/9u4lG0HuICg https://youtu.be/9u4lG0HuICg This looks like it has all the advantages of a traditional train, with all the disadvantages of maglev.
- melling 3y ago“Isn't the point of maglev to be able to go faster?” Yes, faster, quieter, and smoother. People will give up their cars when mass transit is faster and more convenient.
- orwin 3y ago32k daily? So if they are evenly spaced in 24h (I don't believe it's remotely possible), it means 22.2 passengers per minute (or 7. 4 per station per minute, if they are evenly distributed). First reaction: it isn't that high, but it's interesting. Second reaction, after looking at the pictures and where the cars can stop and take passengers: filthy liars. I cannot take this seriously.
- kramerger 3y agoI think we need an independent audit of those numbers because they don't sound even remotely plausible.
- Veedrac 3y agoAs The Boring Company put it, > As a point of reference, less than 20 miles of underground subway tunnel has been constructed in the United States in the last 20 years. The most important point of their design should not be thought of as it being express transport, though it is, nor anything special about their throughput, though it's competitive — it's just that underground transit is good, the regulatory environment is bad, and Teslas-in-tunnels is about the least encumbered way of making it happen.
- jakelazaroff 3y agoIs that actually true, though? I’m pretty sure we’ve built more than 20 miles of tunnel over that time period in LA alone.
- Veedrac 3y agoI have no better data for the broad claim than the claim itself, but IIUC LA only has B and D lines for subway, and those are <23 miles total. Given they opened over 20 years ago I find it hard to see where LA would have built >20 miles of subway. I skimmed the pages for the lines and don't think they've expanded at all in that time, in terms of underground miles. I assume TBC's figure doesn't include work still under construction. Happy to be corrected, my numbers are best-effort.
- manuelabeledo 3y agoThe irony of that statement is that car manufacturers have been lobbying against public transport for decades.
- fullshark 3y agoI was curious what the current status of what's been built is, this review I found informative: https://youtu.be/XnWL-iZFlSM https://youtu.be/XnWL-iZFlSM. Maybe it could work in Vegas, given how unwalkable it is, and how many people are there without cars, looking to move from a specific resort to a specific resort for shows/dining etc.
- manuelabeledo 3y agoThese are Tesla Loop tunnels. I honestly cannot believe that a city would give permission to build such a pyrrhic public transportation system, even if it is privately owned. From the article: "The convention center loop has been operational for about two years and has seen 1.2 million passengers over that span. The highest daily capacity of the system during that time is 32,000 riders." The similarly planned Austin MetroRail has a yearly passenger volume of ~500,000, but at least it is more useful than this.
- kramerger 3y agoI don't believe the 1.2M number for a second. Go try it yourself, or watch the videos people have uploaded.
- 39 3y agoWhy would one or two arbitrary trips be indicative of an aggregate?
- kramerger 3y agoYou can quickly see the inefficiency of the whole idea compared to public transportation
- sidewndr46 3y agoIt's cars. Underground. How could you design a less efficient system? Unicycles driven by domesticated bears towing a fisher price cart?
- xnx 3y agoWaiting for a large train that only carries a few people not quite to their destinations is pretty inefficient.
- supertrope 3y agoA train or bus that only carries a few people is not really a problem. Because labor costs are the majority of public transit operating costs not vehicles it makes sense to use the largest vehicle everywhere. Using minibuses or smaller train cars just means you get capacity issues during rush hour and you can't standardize on one vehicle. You are right that public transit does not go door to door. Riders are expected to walk a block to the nearest station. If a transit system tries to replicate taxi service it would be too expensive or would really inflate waiting times for a ride.
- kramerger 3y agoThe crazy thing is that a high-schooler with a back of envelope calculation can show this is significantly less efficient than metro. That's even before taking into account safety issues they have had. Consider all the idiots you see on the highway, now think about what would happen if there was no way to go around them
- xnx 3y agoLess efficient in what way? Cost per passenger-mile?
- s1artibartfast 3y agoLess efficient in what regard? Certainly not cost per kilometer
- mlinhares 3y agoIt's not insane it's being approved, it's insane people are actually deciding to drive through it.
- matthewdgreen 3y agoAs a privately-funded attraction, AKA "silly thing to do in Vegas" this seems fine, no worse than visiting the Ice Bar or climbing a reproduction of the Eiffel Tower. Hopefully none of those Teslas catch fire in the little tunnels.
- bfeynman 3y agoI think people miss this point, Vegas is a spectacle. If they are going to do something it has to be an attraction not just a rote tool that serves a purpose. They literally want it to be a place you have to go to because you can't experience it anywhere else.
- sneak 3y agoThe permission from the city should be contingent on 24/7 operation. Novelty services that serve tourists going to the convention center don't move the needle on daily users being able to get rid of cars and the car lifestyle unless they can rely on the system at all hours. Even 20/6 means you still need a car.
- ghaff 3y agoThe Strip in Vegas isn't where people live. They live in the vast sprawl of the rest of the city.
- sneak 3y agoThis is only true for people who don't live in high-rise condos/apartments like Turnberry, Allure, Sky, Panorama, etc. All of those are approximately "on the strip" and thousands of people live in them.
- pxue 3y agoElon's superpower is extremely on display here. He's starting from the other way around, sell snake oil to corpos and politicians, get all the bureaucracy out of the way, and then take his sweet ass time to actually deliver. In our current system, this is the best way. Example, in Toronto our politicians literally spent a decade and half debating, approving, then disallowing, then commissioned studies for a ~10 mile long subway line.
- m0llusk 3y agoAt least they won't have to worry much about water intrusion.
- ghaff 3y agoYou can actually get very heavy rain in Vegas (rarely). And then there's a limited storm drain system so you're walking in 6 inches of water.
- dangus 3y agoThe most important question is: is this funded by taxpayer funds or The Boring Company/Tesla? If it’s privately funded, I don’t think the foolishness of this plan can do a lot of long-term damage to the city.
- kuon 3y agoCan't wait for the Adam something video. If you do not know him, he is a youtuber that like trains a lot and make good criticism to a lot of new "hypes". I do not agree with everything he says, and he tend to be a bit extreme, but good content.
- cagenut 3y agoThese'll make great mass-shelters when the grid trips in a heat wave.
- manuelabeledo 3y agoBarely ventilated tunnels? Doesn't sound too appealing.
- cagenut 3y agolol as if 'appealing' will be in the decision criteria those life boat seats look uncomfortable!
- whalesalad 3y agoI was just talking to my wife about this yesterday and wondering why Vegas didn’t have a subway like transit system. I know they have the monorail but it’s really not a comprehensive solution. This will be cool to see unfold. The strip can be tedious to navigate if you’re on foot.
- ghaff 3y agoThe things that make walking tedious also make public transit tedious if you're walking from some station tucked in the back of the casino to where the actual casino and restaurants are. And if a station is outside, we're talking 110 degrees F at certain times of the year. The whole design of the Strip is oriented towards getting you into a casino and keeping you there.
- aaron695 3y ago[flagged]
- manuelabeledo 3y ago[flagged]
- cs702 3y agoOn a related note, Tesla announced it wants to make commercial vans and buses, which would significantly increase the efficiency and throughput of these tunnels.[a] [a] https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/Tesla-Master-Plan-Part-3.pdf https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/Tesla-Master-Plan-Part-3.pdf
- frob 3y agoThey've also announced solar shingles and a self-driving vehicle. Tesla's "plans" are worth less than the electrons storing them.
- hnburnsy 3y agoHere is some more good info and sharp commentary including how fast this is getting built... https://www.casino.org/vitalvegas/vegas-loop-experiences-multiple-borgasms-at-westgate-and-encore/ https://www.casino.org/vitalvegas/vegas-loop-experiences-mul...
- fdye 3y agoSo I haven't ridden the Loop in Vegas, but have seen the videos of people riding it. My first thought was what happens when one of those lithium-ion batteries malfunctions in such a small space? Did they install fire suppressant? How is the ventilation? The idea of being trapped inside while a battery cooks off would be my nightmare...