3 ms·

> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, t

by XorNot 3y ago

> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. Do you think in providing those things, men then become entitled to sex or attention? Which is to say you've listed a large number of material things, or fictional things (TV sitcoms have never been reality, but boy did they do a lot of damage to millenials), absent one core element: actually being a pleasant person. Or providing emotional support. Or empathy (I also note that excluded is "be attractive to the other person in some way"). Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person. To have any independent agency or preferences.

blq10 3y ago
The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. We talk a ton about unrealistic beauty standards, "men talking, women listening", etc - but I have to wonder, maybe the world where women marry people one income decide above them is almost guaranteed to be a world where men are just more competitive in the workplace, even at the expense of running over their female colleagues. The incentives curve says that to expect anything at all of women, you have to be successful, ideally wealthy. So, you get the behavior the incentives curve tells people to enact. An incentives curve that is set, ironically, by women
- johnny22 3y ago
  > The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. that's not true though. I'd say it's not great to be "ugly" (for some definition of the word) but you don't have to attractive. Heck, you can even be pretty poor, but as long as you you're a decent person to be around, it's not that hard.
  - xp84 3y ago
    Perhaps anecdotally a lot of guys find their way somehow (heck, I myself somehow landed a few serious relationships before I was successful, and I wasn’t above average looking then) but when guys read that women expect 6’ and 6 figures which is a very common thing you hear, and you consider that’s like 1% of men that fit just those criteria, it’s pretty off-putting to men who aren’t that and don’t expect to be that. It’s certainly not all women, of course, but there are women who feel they shouldn’t “settle” for “less” than that. As though men who are 5’9 and make $85k are dirtbags or as though tall rich guys will treat you better or be better fathers. It is contributing to the big decrease in marriage even happening, in my opinion, as evidenced by increased average age of first marriage in the West. To be perfectly clear: I’m not daft enough to think that no guys who aren’t in this “shallowly-defined 1%” are getting dates or getting married. Rather, I’m saying that culturally we are now saying it’s very okay, or even best practice, to be incredibly shallow in evaluating men, and that’s as wrong as evaluating women by their measurements.
BlahNeedle 3y ago
> Do you think in providing those things, men then become entitled to sex or attention? You seem to have skipped the take the risk of being rejected part of that comment when reading.
- projectazorian 3y ago
  If the ego damage of getting turned down by a prospective romantic partner is a risk worthy of any note at all then you need to be in therapy, not on the dating market.
  - BlahNeedle 3y ago
    This is a refutation of the claim of being entitled, not a complaint. If you're ready to be rejected, then you're not entitled. Reading sentences in context aids comprehension.
  - lmm 3y ago
    So a normal, healthy person should be able to ask someone to hook up as easy as saying hello? The few people I've met who did that did not seem more healthy and well-adjusted than the rest of us; quite the opposite in fact.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    Ok, mr. thick-skin, not all of us are Supermen.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - throwaway22044 3y ago
    You sound just like my therapist, but you charge less
trealira 3y ago
I have to admit I'm a bit tired and don't know where you're going with this. They're not saying that making the first move entitles one to sex; they're saying the standards are higher for men. I do think that there are a lot of men who feel bitter that they'll never have sex with a woman, but I don't think anything in mainstream society condones such feelings. It's more of a subculture of lonely men turning misogynistic.
- XorNot 3y ago
  The article on question here is literally about prostitution. Sex can be bought for resources, people are selling it - the world's oldest profession. It is also cheap. So the notion that the problem is "men who will never have sex" is fairly obviously false.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    When people say they’ll “never have sex”, it means they’ll never have sex with a romantic partner that wants them as much they do.
raincole 3y ago
Please read my comment in context. I was responding to this quote from the article: > it’s an industry where women get to call the shots, and that women profit off something that men have been told they’re entitled to for free: sex and attention in equal parts. The article says for free. It doesn't say "for just being an attractive guy" or "for just being a nice person". For FREE. That's what the article says, not my word. Also your comment is just appending more things to the list of things that men are expected to do...
strken 3y ago
The "for free" part is what I disagree with because it's almost totally the opposite of what I've seen. Men are taught that their work is valuable but they are not; they feel entitled after putting in work, even if it's work that nobody asked for, like going to the gym a lot or chatting up strangers at bus stops. No, they're not actually entitled to sex and attention, but the entire problem is that men feel like they paid and should therefore receive. "Free" is a complete reversal of the thought process of the entitled man.
- BlargMcLarg 3y ago
  >men feel like they paid and should therefore receive Way to simplify something very complex. What do you expect men to do, quit trying everything and leave it up to fate? Keep up with women's magazines changing their minds by the day and chasing trends to get women to buy things they don't need? Accept the tax of women casually demanding 100+ bucks a date just to have a chance? Wait for them to socially atomize themselves even further to the point of 'maybe you should pick hobbies with more women instead of your own circles filled with men'? Oh wait, that last one also has the caveat of 'if you do it just to meet women, you are a creep'. About everything in the world, people have expectations for putting in effort and others root for their success. This is the one topic society has gone nuts about chastising men, while both encouraging women to demand more and encouraging the same aggressive approach. Even just saying >nobody asked for, like going to the gym a lot shows you're completely out of touch with the younger generations, given the increased demands in muscularity and fitness. Seriously, the women themselves are saying it and have been saying it for decades now. The western world has gone completely mad in regards to dating, but the most vocal party can only shout 'men bad' no matter what they do beyond being a complete doormat with zero expectations.
- imtringued 3y ago
  Your comment is complete nonsense. Men go to the gym for themselves and secondarily, because it raises their attractiveness and confidence in front of everyone, not just women. They chat up strangers at bus stops, because dating is a literal lottery for the guy.
  - 3y ago
imtringued 3y ago
>actually being a pleasant person. That is actually a classic "nice guy" trope. Women want a guy who is confident in stating his attraction to them and who doesn't dwell too much before asking her out or after being rejected. Being "pleasant" only works if you naturally meet a lot of women and the woman asks you out. The reason for that is that platonic friendships physically take up time and limit the number of women you can meet. If you have five female friends, the likelyhood of one of them being attracted to you is practically zero, because the number is way too small. Nobody is going to have a hundred female friends so that one of them is going to ask you out. The economics of male dating just don't allow it to happen. >Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person. How exactly did you come up with this response? Honestly, it feels like you copy pasted it from somewhere else and are now responding out of context. How does splitting the bill dehumanise "the other person"?

by XorNot 3y ago

blq10 3y ago

The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. We talk a ton about unrealistic beauty standards, "men talking, women listening", etc - but I have to wonder, maybe the world where women marry people one income decide above them is almost guaranteed to be a world where men are just more competitive in the workplace, even at the expense of running over their female colleagues. The incentives curve says that to expect anything at all of women, you have to be successful, ideally wealthy. So, you get the behavior the incentives curve tells people to enact. An incentives curve that is set, ironically, by women

johnny22 3y ago
> The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. that's not true though. I'd say it's not great to be "ugly" (for some definition of the word) but you don't have to attractive. Heck, you can even be pretty poor, but as long as you you're a decent person to be around, it's not that hard.
- xp84 3y ago
  Perhaps anecdotally a lot of guys find their way somehow (heck, I myself somehow landed a few serious relationships before I was successful, and I wasn’t above average looking then) but when guys read that women expect 6’ and 6 figures which is a very common thing you hear, and you consider that’s like 1% of men that fit just those criteria, it’s pretty off-putting to men who aren’t that and don’t expect to be that. It’s certainly not all women, of course, but there are women who feel they shouldn’t “settle” for “less” than that. As though men who are 5’9 and make $85k are dirtbags or as though tall rich guys will treat you better or be better fathers. It is contributing to the big decrease in marriage even happening, in my opinion, as evidenced by increased average age of first marriage in the West. To be perfectly clear: I’m not daft enough to think that no guys who aren’t in this “shallowly-defined 1%” are getting dates or getting married. Rather, I’m saying that culturally we are now saying it’s very okay, or even best practice, to be incredibly shallow in evaluating men, and that’s as wrong as evaluating women by their measurements.

BlahNeedle 3y ago

> Do you think in providing those things, men then become entitled to sex or attention? You seem to have skipped the take the risk of being rejected part of that comment when reading.

projectazorian 3y ago
If the ego damage of getting turned down by a prospective romantic partner is a risk worthy of any note at all then you need to be in therapy, not on the dating market.
- BlahNeedle 3y ago
  This is a refutation of the claim of being entitled, not a complaint. If you're ready to be rejected, then you're not entitled. Reading sentences in context aids comprehension.
- lmm 3y ago
  So a normal, healthy person should be able to ask someone to hook up as easy as saying hello? The few people I've met who did that did not seem more healthy and well-adjusted than the rest of us; quite the opposite in fact.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  Ok, mr. thick-skin, not all of us are Supermen.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway22044 3y ago
  You sound just like my therapist, but you charge less

trealira 3y ago

I have to admit I'm a bit tired and don't know where you're going with this. They're not saying that making the first move entitles one to sex; they're saying the standards are higher for men. I do think that there are a lot of men who feel bitter that they'll never have sex with a woman, but I don't think anything in mainstream society condones such feelings. It's more of a subculture of lonely men turning misogynistic.

XorNot 3y ago
The article on question here is literally about prostitution. Sex can be bought for resources, people are selling it - the world's oldest profession. It is also cheap. So the notion that the problem is "men who will never have sex" is fairly obviously false.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  When people say they’ll “never have sex”, it means they’ll never have sex with a romantic partner that wants them as much they do.

raincole 3y ago

Please read my comment in context. I was responding to this quote from the article: > it’s an industry where women get to call the shots, and that women profit off something that men have been told they’re entitled to for free: sex and attention in equal parts. The article says for free. It doesn't say "for just being an attractive guy" or "for just being a nice person". For FREE. That's what the article says, not my word. Also your comment is just appending more things to the list of things that men are expected to do...

strken 3y ago

The "for free" part is what I disagree with because it's almost totally the opposite of what I've seen. Men are taught that their work is valuable but they are not; they feel entitled after putting in work, even if it's work that nobody asked for, like going to the gym a lot or chatting up strangers at bus stops. No, they're not actually entitled to sex and attention, but the entire problem is that men feel like they paid and should therefore receive. "Free" is a complete reversal of the thought process of the entitled man.

BlargMcLarg 3y ago
>men feel like they paid and should therefore receive Way to simplify something very complex. What do you expect men to do, quit trying everything and leave it up to fate? Keep up with women's magazines changing their minds by the day and chasing trends to get women to buy things they don't need? Accept the tax of women casually demanding 100+ bucks a date just to have a chance? Wait for them to socially atomize themselves even further to the point of 'maybe you should pick hobbies with more women instead of your own circles filled with men'? Oh wait, that last one also has the caveat of 'if you do it just to meet women, you are a creep'. About everything in the world, people have expectations for putting in effort and others root for their success. This is the one topic society has gone nuts about chastising men, while both encouraging women to demand more and encouraging the same aggressive approach. Even just saying >nobody asked for, like going to the gym a lot shows you're completely out of touch with the younger generations, given the increased demands in muscularity and fitness. Seriously, the women themselves are saying it and have been saying it for decades now. The western world has gone completely mad in regards to dating, but the most vocal party can only shout 'men bad' no matter what they do beyond being a complete doormat with zero expectations.
imtringued 3y ago
Your comment is complete nonsense. Men go to the gym for themselves and secondarily, because it raises their attractiveness and confidence in front of everyone, not just women. They chat up strangers at bus stops, because dating is a literal lottery for the guy.
- 3y ago

imtringued 3y ago

>actually being a pleasant person. That is actually a classic "nice guy" trope. Women want a guy who is confident in stating his attraction to them and who doesn't dwell too much before asking her out or after being rejected. Being "pleasant" only works if you naturally meet a lot of women and the woman asks you out. The reason for that is that platonic friendships physically take up time and limit the number of women you can meet. If you have five female friends, the likelyhood of one of them being attracted to you is practically zero, because the number is way too small. Nobody is going to have a hundred female friends so that one of them is going to ask you out. The economics of male dating just don't allow it to happen. >Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person. How exactly did you come up with this response? Honestly, it feels like you copy pasted it from somewhere else and are now responding out of context. How does splitting the bill dehumanise "the other person"?