5 ms·

Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, tra

Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. I'm not saying that intrinsitically wrong or right. I just like to know in which culture men are told these.

mise_en_place 3y ago
I think this is accurate. Men are often ridiculed for thinking they are entitled anything. But especially so for sex and female attention.
- ianai 3y ago
  It’s all accurate and inaccurate because people are all very different and come to different positions differently. Some believe they can “sin” under the cover of night and still keep their comfortable places in society as their sins weren’t seen nor known. Secrets and all that. Imagine how such a person would treat a sex worker. Could be very starkly different than what they’d expose the rest of the time. You’ll notice I’m not working in absolutes here. She may have, but working the night she saw things that led her to draw certain conclusions from the things she saw and experienced. I’d venture that she would be able to admit her experiences weren’t the end all be all of humanity though. But still very informative of the people in that space. Edit-In my experience, whether someone is told explicitly that they can exploit another or not is irrelevant. The exploitive figure that out on their own often enough.
  - imtringued 3y ago
    She only has experience with customers who seek her out though. What about the type of men who would never ask for her services? She knows nothing about them.
    - stickfigure 3y ago
      You think the author has never had normal relationships with men? Why would you assume that?
      - telotortium 3y ago
        Many normal men wouldn't want to form a long-term relationship with a current or former prostitute/sex worker, especially one that glorifies and defends that line of work instead of renouncing it completely, as the author does.
- dullcrisp 3y ago
  You’re saying that like you disagree
bell-cot 3y ago
> Have men been told they're entitled... Well...it is nice that you seem unaware of Andrew Tate, and the millions of boys and men who are eager followers of him and similar creeps...
- lmm 3y ago
  I've literally only ever seen him mentioned for the sake of ridiculing him. I'm sure some followers of him exist just as I'm sure some neo-nazis exist, but is it anything other than a tiny fringe of irrelevant weirdos?
  - lll-o-lll 3y ago
    No, he seems to have been able to effectively hack the social media algorithms and make himself an extremely prevalent voice. The mind virus definitely spread and touched millions, if not 10s of millions. Young men are desperate for men they can look up to, to emulate. Rich, exciting, powerful, desired; this was Andrew Tate the image. Of course he was going to be popular! Mainstream media and the chattering classes are utterly powerless against this, we must elevate men of integrity so that young men do not throw their lives away. Black men, rich white men, Jordan Peterson if he cuts through, but men with integrity. Deconstruct society too much and you will just be left with the swirling entropy of nothingness. Socrates understood this, and we are fools to forget.
  - gzer0 3y ago
    Interestingly enough, I had assumed the same thing. That, it was perhaps some cult-like very limited and extremist following limited to a select few. My eyes were opened when I visited the Toronto area recently. From my (limited) anecdotal experience, there seems to be a fervent, messiah like following of Tate and the things he says. It was so bizarre to me. P.S. not saying anything bad about Toronto! Just that it was my experience there. Please take things you read on the internet with a (bucket) of salt, and healthy skepticism!
  - flangola7 3y ago
    His YouTube channel alone had millions of subscribers.
XorNot 3y ago
> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. Do you think in providing those things, men then become entitled to sex or attention? Which is to say you've listed a large number of material things, or fictional things (TV sitcoms have never been reality, but boy did they do a lot of damage to millenials), absent one core element: actually being a pleasant person. Or providing emotional support. Or empathy (I also note that excluded is "be attractive to the other person in some way"). Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person. To have any independent agency or preferences.
- blq10 3y ago
  The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. We talk a ton about unrealistic beauty standards, "men talking, women listening", etc - but I have to wonder, maybe the world where women marry people one income decide above them is almost guaranteed to be a world where men are just more competitive in the workplace, even at the expense of running over their female colleagues. The incentives curve says that to expect anything at all of women, you have to be successful, ideally wealthy. So, you get the behavior the incentives curve tells people to enact. An incentives curve that is set, ironically, by women
  - johnny22 3y ago
    > The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. that's not true though. I'd say it's not great to be "ugly" (for some definition of the word) but you don't have to attractive. Heck, you can even be pretty poor, but as long as you you're a decent person to be around, it's not that hard.
scns 3y ago
> Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. Walking up to a woman takes courage, which is a desirable quality. Why should a woman wan't a man, that lacks the balls to talk to her? The mating dance of many species has rules they have to follow. Complaining about them does zero for your dating success. The female decides if his display is good enough for her. The App Bumble has women message first and it is strange for them.
- QuercusMax 3y ago
  That might work for some relationships, but not all. My wife made the first move, and technically I think she actually proposed first - but these gender roles are by no means hard coded and are primarily enforced through social structures. Different strokes for different folks. Don't be so strict with your social structures and you'll probably be happier.
- srean 3y ago
  The point that the OP was speaking to (refuting) is that men expect favors for free. OP's point is that they are not free at all and earned by subjecting oneself to risk and absorbing the adverse consequences of taking that risk.

mise_en_place 3y ago

I think this is accurate. Men are often ridiculed for thinking they are entitled anything. But especially so for sex and female attention.

ianai 3y ago
It’s all accurate and inaccurate because people are all very different and come to different positions differently. Some believe they can “sin” under the cover of night and still keep their comfortable places in society as their sins weren’t seen nor known. Secrets and all that. Imagine how such a person would treat a sex worker. Could be very starkly different than what they’d expose the rest of the time. You’ll notice I’m not working in absolutes here. She may have, but working the night she saw things that led her to draw certain conclusions from the things she saw and experienced. I’d venture that she would be able to admit her experiences weren’t the end all be all of humanity though. But still very informative of the people in that space. Edit-In my experience, whether someone is told explicitly that they can exploit another or not is irrelevant. The exploitive figure that out on their own often enough.
- imtringued 3y ago
  She only has experience with customers who seek her out though. What about the type of men who would never ask for her services? She knows nothing about them.
  - stickfigure 3y ago
    You think the author has never had normal relationships with men? Why would you assume that?
    - telotortium 3y ago
      Many normal men wouldn't want to form a long-term relationship with a current or former prostitute/sex worker, especially one that glorifies and defends that line of work instead of renouncing it completely, as the author does.
dullcrisp 3y ago
You’re saying that like you disagree

bell-cot 3y ago

> Have men been told they're entitled... Well...it is nice that you seem unaware of Andrew Tate, and the millions of boys and men who are eager followers of him and similar creeps...

lmm 3y ago
I've literally only ever seen him mentioned for the sake of ridiculing him. I'm sure some followers of him exist just as I'm sure some neo-nazis exist, but is it anything other than a tiny fringe of irrelevant weirdos?
- lll-o-lll 3y ago
  No, he seems to have been able to effectively hack the social media algorithms and make himself an extremely prevalent voice. The mind virus definitely spread and touched millions, if not 10s of millions. Young men are desperate for men they can look up to, to emulate. Rich, exciting, powerful, desired; this was Andrew Tate the image. Of course he was going to be popular! Mainstream media and the chattering classes are utterly powerless against this, we must elevate men of integrity so that young men do not throw their lives away. Black men, rich white men, Jordan Peterson if he cuts through, but men with integrity. Deconstruct society too much and you will just be left with the swirling entropy of nothingness. Socrates understood this, and we are fools to forget.
- gzer0 3y ago
  Interestingly enough, I had assumed the same thing. That, it was perhaps some cult-like very limited and extremist following limited to a select few. My eyes were opened when I visited the Toronto area recently. From my (limited) anecdotal experience, there seems to be a fervent, messiah like following of Tate and the things he says. It was so bizarre to me. P.S. not saying anything bad about Toronto! Just that it was my experience there. Please take things you read on the internet with a (bucket) of salt, and healthy skepticism!
- flangola7 3y ago
  His YouTube channel alone had millions of subscribers.

XorNot 3y ago

> Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. Do you think in providing those things, men then become entitled to sex or attention? Which is to say you've listed a large number of material things, or fictional things (TV sitcoms have never been reality, but boy did they do a lot of damage to millenials), absent one core element: actually being a pleasant person. Or providing emotional support. Or empathy (I also note that excluded is "be attractive to the other person in some way"). Basically: your list entirely excludes the right of the other person to...be a person. To have any independent agency or preferences.

blq10 3y ago
The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. We talk a ton about unrealistic beauty standards, "men talking, women listening", etc - but I have to wonder, maybe the world where women marry people one income decide above them is almost guaranteed to be a world where men are just more competitive in the workplace, even at the expense of running over their female colleagues. The incentives curve says that to expect anything at all of women, you have to be successful, ideally wealthy. So, you get the behavior the incentives curve tells people to enact. An incentives curve that is set, ironically, by women
- johnny22 3y ago
  > The list of things the commenter you're replying to brought up, in addition to "be attractive", is table stakes for receiving an iota of romantic attention from women. that's not true though. I'd say it's not great to be "ugly" (for some definition of the word) but you don't have to attractive. Heck, you can even be pretty poor, but as long as you you're a decent person to be around, it's not that hard.

scns 3y ago

> Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. Walking up to a woman takes courage, which is a desirable quality. Why should a woman wan't a man, that lacks the balls to talk to her? The mating dance of many species has rules they have to follow. Complaining about them does zero for your dating success. The female decides if his display is good enough for her. The App Bumble has women message first and it is strange for them.

QuercusMax 3y ago
That might work for some relationships, but not all. My wife made the first move, and technically I think she actually proposed first - but these gender roles are by no means hard coded and are primarily enforced through social structures. Different strokes for different folks. Don't be so strict with your social structures and you'll probably be happier.
srean 3y ago
The point that the OP was speaking to (refuting) is that men expect favors for free. OP's point is that they are not free at all and earned by subjecting oneself to risk and absorbing the adverse consequences of taking that risk.