3 ms·

The problem is... Good managers are necessary. However managers get judged weirdly. Because they can't point to what they did and say look at my work, it's ex

The problem is... Good managers are necessary. However managers get judged weirdly. Because they can't point to what they did and say look at my work, it's excellent. Good management is invisible. Things just work. It's smooth. Everyone gets stuff done. Bs doesn't happen. So it creates this weird problem. A manager is valued based on the number of people under them. Meanwhile they need to quickly figure out who they can trust. And frankly this is a critical skill. A good manager can judge people quickly and figure out who is doing good work and who isn't and who can be trained up to be better. But good managers aren't a dime a dozzen. Just because you know the business well doesn't mean you can make a team effective. And so the problem. This is why the phrase goes... People come for the company and the money. People stay for the manager.

cjstkfpdlel 3y ago
you say the good managers are necessary because you are limited by the data points we have today. what prevents you from thinking that we can come up with a better people process and productivity technology that can improve workers productivity and mental health without the existence of the so-called "good managers"? if you can't imagine an alternative, go back and read the paragraph about Lord Kelvin.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > what prevents you from thinking that we can come up with a better people process and productivity technology Upper management, really. I dislike bad management as much as the next guy, but bad management feels more like a symptom of a poorly run company. If the executive strategy insists on maximizing value and driving employees to the brink 24/7, then managers will make that happen. It's like the whole "good soldier" question; do they obey or do the right thing? Most "good managers" that want to keep their job will act as interpreters for whatever their higher-ups tell them. C-suites barely know what they want, and engineers barely know what to do. Maybe I've been sold a bill of goods by my previous managers, but many of them have pulled their weight just fine.
- p1esk 3y ago
  we can come up with a better people process Sounds like a manager’s job. Who are “we” exactly? I’m not a manager and I don’t want to deal with people processes.
  - smcleod 3y ago
    I would assume leaders. Peers that think more horizontally and get (at least part of) their energy from helping others.
    - BerislavLopac 3y ago
      So, managers?
      - smcleod 3y ago
        No, generally managers see themselves as “above” engineers and tend not to work as peers on the same projects. They (try to) manage rather than lead by example and practise.
        asielen 3y ago
        So the issue isn't all managers but rather how few good managers there actually are. I think companies don't know how to optimize for good management because, as the other person mentioned, good management can be invisible. The impact of good management often won't show up in one quarter of performance. And sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Also there are way too many incentives to promote ICs to managers who shouldn't be managers just because they need someone to manage a team and they don't have clear IC promotion tracks.
        Justsignedup 3y ago
        Adding on to your statement. I think this is the crux of the problem. Organizing people efficiently is hard. And unfortunately the incentives for mangers are: the more people under you the more valuable you are. And you must hit goals because managers are directly judged based on team outcomes. The problem is "turtles all the way down". Because of the above, often directors aren't amazing mentors. They just know how to push people into the right direction... Socialized bad guy if you will. So instead of managers getting solid mentorship, they are often thrust into a position of power and told to figure it out, well for many, as you see with how they raise children, figure it out = ruthless. I have had a manager who ended up as a mentor/friend. That is because she always cared.
- LargeTomato 3y ago
  Your post goes from well thought out to annoying the minute you pivot to historical figures.
  - dudul 3y ago
    It started being silly when the bit about "taking credit for the work reports do" failed to mention that they ate also supposed to be accountable when the team fails.

cjstkfpdlel 3y ago

you say the good managers are necessary because you are limited by the data points we have today. what prevents you from thinking that we can come up with a better people process and productivity technology that can improve workers productivity and mental health without the existence of the so-called "good managers"? if you can't imagine an alternative, go back and read the paragraph about Lord Kelvin.

smoldesu 3y ago
> what prevents you from thinking that we can come up with a better people process and productivity technology Upper management, really. I dislike bad management as much as the next guy, but bad management feels more like a symptom of a poorly run company. If the executive strategy insists on maximizing value and driving employees to the brink 24/7, then managers will make that happen. It's like the whole "good soldier" question; do they obey or do the right thing? Most "good managers" that want to keep their job will act as interpreters for whatever their higher-ups tell them. C-suites barely know what they want, and engineers barely know what to do. Maybe I've been sold a bill of goods by my previous managers, but many of them have pulled their weight just fine.
p1esk 3y ago
we can come up with a better people process Sounds like a manager’s job. Who are “we” exactly? I’m not a manager and I don’t want to deal with people processes.
- smcleod 3y ago
  I would assume leaders. Peers that think more horizontally and get (at least part of) their energy from helping others.
  - BerislavLopac 3y ago
    So, managers?
    - smcleod 3y ago
      No, generally managers see themselves as “above” engineers and tend not to work as peers on the same projects. They (try to) manage rather than lead by example and practise.
      - asielen 3y ago
        So the issue isn't all managers but rather how few good managers there actually are. I think companies don't know how to optimize for good management because, as the other person mentioned, good management can be invisible. The impact of good management often won't show up in one quarter of performance. And sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Also there are way too many incentives to promote ICs to managers who shouldn't be managers just because they need someone to manage a team and they don't have clear IC promotion tracks.
        Justsignedup 3y ago
        Adding on to your statement. I think this is the crux of the problem. Organizing people efficiently is hard. And unfortunately the incentives for mangers are: the more people under you the more valuable you are. And you must hit goals because managers are directly judged based on team outcomes. The problem is "turtles all the way down". Because of the above, often directors aren't amazing mentors. They just know how to push people into the right direction... Socialized bad guy if you will. So instead of managers getting solid mentorship, they are often thrust into a position of power and told to figure it out, well for many, as you see with how they raise children, figure it out = ruthless. I have had a manager who ended up as a mentor/friend. That is because she always cared.
LargeTomato 3y ago
Your post goes from well thought out to annoying the minute you pivot to historical figures.
- dudul 3y ago
  It started being silly when the bit about "taking credit for the work reports do" failed to mention that they ate also supposed to be accountable when the team fails.