4 ms·

Well, this was interesting, even if I have no idea what I'm looking at and my skepticism about all things remains high.

ethanbond 3y ago
You’re looking at free intel provided to China/Russia etc about US next generation weapons capabilities! They develop aircraft here, stuff that is wildly important to the (current) global security regime. Not a thing I’d personally want to be recklessly/ignorantly poking and prodding by releasing photos like that.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Then the military ought to choose a better location, somewhere a civilian with a good camera can't take such compromising photos.
  - scrum-treats 3y ago
    so... time travel back to pre-2020s?
  - downvotetruth 3y ago
    Alaska tundra would probably be the best spot given the absence of people, cloud cover, ice as runway, and cold for engine efficiency. Would be interesting to know how many mountain tops would need to be closed to stop the ground cameras for 51.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Sure! Til then I’m 100% fine with them going after people who blatantly break a completely reasonable law.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      They are not breaking any laws though. If you film stuff from public space, you are not breaking any law. The onus is on the government to secure their stuff, not punish people taking photos from public lands.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        It is quite obviously completely illegal, and you can look at the search warrant (indicating a judge agreed there was probable cause) for the specific laws. I copy/pasted a few below for you. Whether all or some of those laws are constitutional and will stand up in court can change year by year. I strongly, strongly suspect that no judge is going to strike down the government's ability to restrict people from collecting and disseminating information on secret military installations. It is objectively true that these installations, their secrecy (and this one installation and its secrecy in particular) have been instrumental to the federal government's ability to carry out its obligations over the past several decades. 18 USC 795: It's illegal to photograph or sketch secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795) 18 USC 796: It's illegal to use an aircraft to photograph secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796) 18 USC 797: It's illegal to disseminate photographs of secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797) Arresting people for openly breaking the law is a perfectly valid component of "securing their stuff." In fact that is precisely how almost everything in our society is actually secured: by threat of law.
        PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        I stand corrected. 18 USC 796 I can understand, but 18 USC 795 and 18 USC 797 surprise me. I would have thought such laws were restricted to military personnel. Civilians sketching or photographing from public space I would have thought would be legal.
        ethanbond 3y ago
- throwaway589458 3y ago
  This is just ridiculous paranoia. Compare the quality of satellite photography a well funded nation state has access to against Mr Arnu's taken from 42km away. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-29_Safir_launch_failure.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-... https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html It's not an unknown problem either and the 3 letter people have decades of experience dealing with it including moveable shelters. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircraft-at-area-51-or-a-shadow-of-a-cloud https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircr...
  - tw04 3y ago
    But it’s really not. A satellite is never going to be able to get the same shots as someone ground level with a good camera. We’re also actively tracking where their satellites are at any given point in time and move things when they aren’t overhead. So to act as if an individual on the ground couldn’t get info the satellites cannot is just silly.
    - throwaway589458 3y ago
      This was the case but isn't really true anymore. With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you. Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult. edit: Radar messes with SAR as well but the government hasn't even bothered to try to shield Area 51. https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interference-tracker-a-new-open-source-tool-to-locate-active-military-radar-systems/ https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interf...
      - tw04 3y ago
        > With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you. Try buying pictures of Area 51 from one of those commercial leos and let us all know how that conversation goes. > Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult. Which provide

You’re looking at free intel provided to China/Russia etc about US next generation weapons capabilities! They develop aircraft here, stuff that is wildly important to the (current) global security regime. Not a thing I’d personally want to be recklessly/ignorantly poking and prodding by releasing photos like that.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Then the military ought to choose a better location, somewhere a civilian with a good camera can't take such compromising photos.
- scrum-treats 3y ago
  so... time travel back to pre-2020s?
- downvotetruth 3y ago
  Alaska tundra would probably be the best spot given the absence of people, cloud cover, ice as runway, and cold for engine efficiency. Would be interesting to know how many mountain tops would need to be closed to stop the ground cameras for 51.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Sure! Til then I’m 100% fine with them going after people who blatantly break a completely reasonable law.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    They are not breaking any laws though. If you film stuff from public space, you are not breaking any law. The onus is on the government to secure their stuff, not punish people taking photos from public lands.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      It is quite obviously completely illegal, and you can look at the search warrant (indicating a judge agreed there was probable cause) for the specific laws. I copy/pasted a few below for you. Whether all or some of those laws are constitutional and will stand up in court can change year by year. I strongly, strongly suspect that no judge is going to strike down the government's ability to restrict people from collecting and disseminating information on secret military installations. It is objectively true that these installations, their secrecy (and this one installation and its secrecy in particular) have been instrumental to the federal government's ability to carry out its obligations over the past several decades. 18 USC 795: It's illegal to photograph or sketch secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795) 18 USC 796: It's illegal to use an aircraft to photograph secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796) 18 USC 797: It's illegal to disseminate photographs of secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797) Arresting people for openly breaking the law is a perfectly valid component of "securing their stuff." In fact that is precisely how almost everything in our society is actually secured: by threat of law.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        I stand corrected. 18 USC 796 I can understand, but 18 USC 795 and 18 USC 797 surprise me. I would have thought such laws were restricted to military personnel. Civilians sketching or photographing from public space I would have thought would be legal.
        ethanbond 3y ago
throwaway589458 3y ago
This is just ridiculous paranoia. Compare the quality of satellite photography a well funded nation state has access to against Mr Arnu's taken from 42km away. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-29_Safir_launch_failure.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-... https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html It's not an unknown problem either and the 3 letter people have decades of experience dealing with it including moveable shelters. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircraft-at-area-51-or-a-shadow-of-a-cloud https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircr...
- tw04 3y ago
  But it’s really not. A satellite is never going to be able to get the same shots as someone ground level with a good camera. We’re also actively tracking where their satellites are at any given point in time and move things when they aren’t overhead. So to act as if an individual on the ground couldn’t get info the satellites cannot is just silly.
  - throwaway589458 3y ago
    This was the case but isn't really true anymore. With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you. Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult. edit: Radar messes with SAR as well but the government hasn't even bothered to try to shield Area 51. https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interference-tracker-a-new-open-source-tool-to-locate-active-military-radar-systems/ https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interf...
    - tw04 3y ago
      > With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you. Try buying pictures of Area 51 from one of those commercial leos and let us all know how that conversation goes. > Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult. Which provide