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The articles theory that old code is what determines if a language is loved / dreaded is really severely flawed. 5 of the most loved languages are ancient (Pyth

The articles theory that old code is what determines if a language is loved / dreaded is really severely flawed. 5 of the most loved languages are ancient (Python, JS, Sql, Shell, HTML) and also all have reputations of having hacked (i.e. poor maintability) together code. Additional the top loved programming languages are beyond 10 years old which means there's going to be plenty of 3yr old codebases for people to be programming in. So quite trivially it's not that the languages are too new to have old crusty codebase ... > The TOP 15 Loved Programming Languages > Rust, TypeScript, Python, Kotlin, Go, Julia, Dart, C#, Swift, JavaScript, SQL, Shell, HTML, Scala, and Haskell. Rust is 2015 (8 years), TS is 2012 (10 years), Python is 1991 (32 years), Kotlin is 2011 (12 years), Go is 2009 (13 years), Julia is 2012 (11 years), Dart is 2011 (11 years), C# is 2000 (23 years ago), Swift is 2014 (9 years ago), JS is 1995 (27 years), SQL is 1970?? (50 years), HTML is 1993 (30 years), Scala is 2004 (19 years), and Haskell is 1990 (33 years). --- ObjC and or Swift really should be in the Green languages column as well; what's he going to do new projects on iOS using? I think also many people would keep Java / C#|C++ in the Green column as well. SQL also would be in the green column. Moving 3 languages from Brown to Green really skews the later pie charts.

nerdchum 3y ago
Erlang not loved. Sad to see.
brabel 3y ago
You're missing the important point that in OP's hypothesis, it doesn't matter how old the language is, but how long it's been popular. Python and Dart, for example, have been much more popular recently than in the past, so it's reasonable to assume that the percentage of newer code bases in those languages is higher than in, say, Java. Python may have been popular already 10 years ago, but it feels like back then it was mostly used for small websites and scripting, things you don't normally need to maintain for a long time. > So quite trivially it's not that the languages are too new to have old crusty codebase ... Considering the year a language was created is missing the point the author tried to make, unfortunately, so I would say your argument is based on a flawed premise (trivially shown by reading the article and understanding it). I think JS is the only language that goes against this, but that's quite easy to explain: it's a language used mostly for web development, where it's practically, your only choice (notice that "loved" actually means having intent to continue using it in the future).
- troupe 3y ago
  I think a further nuance (if I'm understanding the author) is that a language you are likely to use starting from scratch is going to be more loved. While there is plenty of shell code out there, it is more common to write a shell script from scratch than it is to start a java project from scratch.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  No the author didn't read the methodology of the Stack Overflow Survey nor did they notice they can get the historical CSV of the survey going back to 2011 [1] which literally tells the number of respondents per language (as-in how popular it is; no secondary population from TIBOE needed). Nor do they seem to understand (unlike you who does understand) that Loved and Dreaded have very specific meanings. They did shoddy work and I'm calling them out on it. They very easily could've tried to use the past (then) 9 years of data to show that as a language gets more popular it became less loved; but they didn't. The question of "If Java and Ruby appeared today, without piles of old rails apps and old enterprise Java applications to maintain, would they still be dreaded or would they be more likely to show up on the loved list?" is answered. It's a no. For 2020, Ruby was 4.5% and Java was 8.8% of developer's "Wanted" languages while Go (17.9%), Rust (14.6%), TypeScript (17.0%), Python (30.0% !!). Sure a lot of people would like Ruby and Java (there already are actually a lot of them) but when you're not at the top of the Wanted it's going to be very hard to get to the top of Loved. [1]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/ https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/
  - adamgordonbell 3y ago
    > but when you're not at the top of the Wanted it's going to be very hard to get to the top of Loved. Loved is based on people who use it. Wanted based on wanting to use it. They are separate.
  - ghayes 3y ago
    I surmise that love or hate for a language is closely coupled with its stdlib. My favorite languages (Elixir, Rust) have some of the best standard libraries (and even, Go, for instance, includes JSON encoding and decoding in its own). This shields developers from code bases that need to constantly reinvent the wheel or pull in many dependencies for simple tasks. JavaScript is on the cusp here with a bad standard lib that has improved (in some ways) over the last 15 years.
mxmlnkn 3y ago
Note that HTML, Shell, and SQL appear in both the most loved and most dreaded lists.
- raincole 3y ago
  I'm really surprised that JavaScript is not one of the most dreaded.
  - charlieyu1 3y ago
    Old JS was weird and associated with cringy banners. By early 2000s it had declined sharply. I don't know why Google decided to revive that
rcme 3y ago
I don't think many new iOS apps are done in Objective-C.
petre 3y ago
I saw Ruby and SQL in the brown box, Js in the green box and stopped reading. Just last week I was getting annoyed with js bundlers trying to get a js library to work on the browser while fighting all the mess. Still feels like a big pile of duct taped components. Not the experience I have with Perl, a "brown" language.

nerdchum 3y ago

Erlang not loved. Sad to see.

brabel 3y ago

You're missing the important point that in OP's hypothesis, it doesn't matter how old the language is, but how long it's been popular. Python and Dart, for example, have been much more popular recently than in the past, so it's reasonable to assume that the percentage of newer code bases in those languages is higher than in, say, Java. Python may have been popular already 10 years ago, but it feels like back then it was mostly used for small websites and scripting, things you don't normally need to maintain for a long time. > So quite trivially it's not that the languages are too new to have old crusty codebase ... Considering the year a language was created is missing the point the author tried to make, unfortunately, so I would say your argument is based on a flawed premise (trivially shown by reading the article and understanding it). I think JS is the only language that goes against this, but that's quite easy to explain: it's a language used mostly for web development, where it's practically, your only choice (notice that "loved" actually means having intent to continue using it in the future).

troupe 3y ago
I think a further nuance (if I'm understanding the author) is that a language you are likely to use starting from scratch is going to be more loved. While there is plenty of shell code out there, it is more common to write a shell script from scratch than it is to start a java project from scratch.
lesuorac 3y ago
No the author didn't read the methodology of the Stack Overflow Survey nor did they notice they can get the historical CSV of the survey going back to 2011 [1] which literally tells the number of respondents per language (as-in how popular it is; no secondary population from TIBOE needed). Nor do they seem to understand (unlike you who does understand) that Loved and Dreaded have very specific meanings. They did shoddy work and I'm calling them out on it. They very easily could've tried to use the past (then) 9 years of data to show that as a language gets more popular it became less loved; but they didn't. The question of "If Java and Ruby appeared today, without piles of old rails apps and old enterprise Java applications to maintain, would they still be dreaded or would they be more likely to show up on the loved list?" is answered. It's a no. For 2020, Ruby was 4.5% and Java was 8.8% of developer's "Wanted" languages while Go (17.9%), Rust (14.6%), TypeScript (17.0%), Python (30.0% !!). Sure a lot of people would like Ruby and Java (there already are actually a lot of them) but when you're not at the top of the Wanted it's going to be very hard to get to the top of Loved. [1]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/ https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/
- adamgordonbell 3y ago
  > but when you're not at the top of the Wanted it's going to be very hard to get to the top of Loved. Loved is based on people who use it. Wanted based on wanting to use it. They are separate.
- ghayes 3y ago
  I surmise that love or hate for a language is closely coupled with its stdlib. My favorite languages (Elixir, Rust) have some of the best standard libraries (and even, Go, for instance, includes JSON encoding and decoding in its own). This shields developers from code bases that need to constantly reinvent the wheel or pull in many dependencies for simple tasks. JavaScript is on the cusp here with a bad standard lib that has improved (in some ways) over the last 15 years.

mxmlnkn 3y ago

Note that HTML, Shell, and SQL appear in both the most loved and most dreaded lists.

raincole 3y ago
I'm really surprised that JavaScript is not one of the most dreaded.
- charlieyu1 3y ago
  Old JS was weird and associated with cringy banners. By early 2000s it had declined sharply. I don't know why Google decided to revive that

rcme 3y ago

I don't think many new iOS apps are done in Objective-C.

petre 3y ago

I saw Ruby and SQL in the brown box, Js in the green box and stopped reading. Just last week I was getting annoyed with js bundlers trying to get a js library to work on the browser while fighting all the mess. Still feels like a big pile of duct taped components. Not the experience I have with Perl, a "brown" language.