12 ms·

I'm surprised by how many negative reactions there are here. Some people seem almost offended, presumably because we're turning down people with ideas and fundi

by paul 15y ago

I'm surprised by how many negative reactions there are here. Some people seem almost offended, presumably because we're turning down people with ideas and funding some without. This really just reinforces the fact that we fund people, not ideas. The way it works in practice is that we work with the founders to find a good idea that will work for them (the idea needs to match the founder). The truth is that most people have good ideas in them, but just don't realize it. We aren't necessarily providing the idea so much as helping them to discover the idea that they already have :)

apu 15y ago
Perhaps it's just me, but I feel like HN comments overall have gotten significantly more negative in the past few months. I can't recall reading the comments section for any recent startup launch or sale without at least half the commenters tearing it apart, often with almost no information to back it up.
craze3 15y ago
The team that finds their perfect-fitting idea is the team that's going to prosper. Couldn't agree more. I think the reason that a portion of the public is acting negatively is because they're afraid that these changes will cause YC to become a playground for non-technical cofounders and nutjobs with ideas. I have confidence that the partners won't let this happen. They've already shown their willingness to revert back if it doesn't work out (limited trial run), so I really don't understand why people are pissed.
rdl 15y ago
The main downside I see is that it will be harder to evaluate teams if they don't have an idea to talk about in the app and interview -- even the idea is totally throwaway. It doesn't seem like a bad idea, but I think the RFS already fills this need (as long as people know they can apply with an RFS but then do something different)
- pg 15y ago
  We have an idea for that actually.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    The other side to this (as I am sure you are aware) is that if this experiment fails it means one of two things: 1) It's a bad idea, or 2) The implementation needs work I think the biggest difficulty in assessing things will be if it doesn't meet expectations, determining which of these applies after the fact.
    - rdl 15y ago
      Assuming the YC guys get about 3000 applications (based on published acceptance rates and class sizes), they can probably either do some a/b tests in the reviewing process, or just substitute extra manual labor to evaluate based on other metrics if something goes wrong. It's not all all-or-nothing single test.
      - einhverfr 15y ago
        That misunderstands the problem. Metrics only get you so far. They don't really tell you why you fail. They only tell you how far you are along your plan to succeed, and whether it is matching expectations. But if things are failing, they can't tell you why, particularly in an experiment like this. Maybe it is genuinely a bad idea and nothing will make it succeed. Maybe it is a good idea but needs to be gone about differently. In other words, you can show that you are doing what you think you need to do to be successful, and that you are not being successful, but you can;t show what changes you need to make in order to be successful. The solutions do require manual labor, but they require creative labor. This area is more art than science. If I was doing this I would assemble a list of reasons why this experiment will fail up front. I would revisit the lists in a year or so. I would ask which ones played into the problem. I would then ask what could be done about it. But that's me. Others have to find their own ways.
- DilipJ 15y ago
  I agree. If you don't have an idea, on what basis are they judging you? what is their filtering process? If you are in your early twenties, what exactly have you accomplished that would separate you from the herd? Nothing, except which schools you have attended. I'm guessing the main filtering process YC will do is to filter based on which schools you attended, so in that way, YC is basically adopting the recruiting process that investment banks do. I wonder what % of those YC funds attended the Ivy League or other private u's vs. those who went to state schools?
mirsadm 15y ago
Considering all signs point to "we fund people not ideas", I'm surprised by the reaction as well.
citricsquid 15y ago
I think the negativity is a result of hn being a community where what you are is meaningless, it's about what you do. Walking into YC with a nice haircut, suit and the ability to sell yourself doesn't fit the idea most people here have about entrepreneurship. It makes perfect business sense for you, the reasons you outline are sound and I'm sure it will bring YC a lot of success, but it doesn't fit with what the (average) community member here thinks about entrepreneurship. That's my understanding of the negativity, could be off the mark but it seems the most logical conclusion.
- paul 15y ago
  You underestimate us. The people we accept without an idea most likely have accomplished a lot. They simply don't have an idea that they are excited about, perhaps because they've been focused on accomplishing something else. Also, I don't think we've ever accepted anyone who wore a suit to interviews.
  - thesauce25 15y ago
    Note to self: If offered an interview, do not wear a suit.
    - blhack 15y ago
      Isn't this kindof given on the west coast? I can't imagine a single hacker I know wearing a suit (and meaning it).
      - SatvikBeri 15y ago
        People who're not on the west coast apply to YC too.
      - thesauce25 15y ago
        For me personally, I've always worn suits to interviews, but they haven't been for hacker positions. For me it was to show that I took the application process seriously and I really wanted the position.
IsaacL 15y ago
I'm curious -- it looks like there is nowhere on the application form to describe your idea. That is, you're not just letting people apply without an idea, you're stopping them from applying with an idea. Is that intentional?
- Harj 15y ago
  This is a separate application form for people with no idea. You can still apply with an idea via the regular application form: http://ycombinator.com/apply.html http://ycombinator.com/apply.html
  - dwynings 15y ago
    Clicking through that link still shows the no-idea app for me.
    - Timothee 15y ago
      Same for me. PG et al, you might want to look into it.
      - pg 15y ago
        That's because your application this cycle is now a no-idea application. You can change that using http://news.ycombinator.com/change-idea-status http://news.ycombinator.com/change-idea-status. (There will be a FAQ about this sort of thing, but I wanted to get this launched today and only had 10 minutes to do it in before I had to go to office hours.)
- paul 15y ago
  We still prefer that people apply with ideas. All that's new is that we've added an option for people to apply without one. All else equal, a team with a good idea has a much better chance of being accepted than one without.
itsnotme 15y ago
I'm not surprised to see this reaction. The folks who react strongly against this announcement have ideas, and think these ideas make them special. We've all worked with that girl who succeeded at everything she touched. We'd hire her in a heartbeat, for any project, because she figures out how to make it work the best it can. If she's around, we can step back a bit and trust, and the project turns out better than if we'd run it our self. She's worth way more than the guy who farts great ideas.
- mikeklaas 15y ago
  As someone with a negative reaction to this idea, I think your characterization is off base. Nor is it a problem of fairness—I don't care who yc accepts nor am I interested in participating in yc. I have a negative reaction because although I agree with the principle of funding people in general, I'm skeptical of the idea of people who "want to be entrepreneurs" rather than people who become entrepreneurs to achieve something specific. (I've already made one comment to this effect that was downvoted to oblivion.) It's not that ideas are worthwhile and are what you should get into yc. I am skeptical that a good founder wouldn't be able to come up with scads of potential ways they want to change the world.
  - larrys 15y ago
    I think by definition (and having attended an entrepreneurial program at a fine school, coming from an entrepreneurial family, and having hung around entrepreneurs most of my life) I can't imagine someone who is an entrepreneur not having a zillion ideas that they think of all on their own. To make money that is. The problem with most entrepreneurs is that they have to many ideas. That doesn't mean they are good ideas of course (by the definition of YC).
    - fatihdonmez 15y ago
      yes it's the main problem actually.. How to pick the best one between to many ideas to start.. Maybe they can start a program for it, apply with many we help you to choose one..
rokhayakebe 15y ago
I am with you 100%, but let me explain what they are thinking: "I have a 6 figure job, a nice home, a luxury car, but she choose this artist without 30 cents in his bank account." The attitude says more about the commentor than the concept they are complaining about.
einhverfr 15y ago
Here's what I would worry about. Obviously the YC folks know what they are doing generally and this is an experiment that may fail or may succeed. So this is offered in the spirit of addressing a possible issue. If you haven't thought about it, at least thinking about it may help you avoid it. What I would worry about would be the fact that there is a difference between being given an idea and turning around a general idea into something new. If you are already in business, and you are going to be successful, turning around an idea you already have into something different is a familiar process and a necessary skill. On the other hand, the question becomes what happens with those who don't have an idea? I can't speak for the people who will apply, but I know there is a huge difference between the attention I put into working on my own ideas and working on other people's. Ok, these categories aren't mutually exclusive. These aren't really comparable. Even if forced by circumstance into doing a specific thing for a business, it's different than being essentially hired by investors to implement their ideas. Again these aren't mutually exclusive categories or anything, but they represent something I would hope you'd be careful about. One way to go about this would be to work with such people to find ideas after accepting them. Being excited about something is important in running a business regardless of its size or scope. Your response suggests you are aware of this. So maybe all of this just acts as validation that you are on the right path.
dwd 15y ago
Given the number of acquisitions that are really about the talent - this makes a lot of sense.
throwawaymm 15y ago
The negativity comes from the fact that more and more "startups" are just being 'bought' and shutdown. In the past, I think people applying to YC would have thought they could become the next Google. Now, it's more likely their startup will be 'aquihired' and they'll end up working at Facebook or Google. It's a glorified jobs board. With this announcement, it's basically an admission that the idea never mattered. Posterous didn't matter, Auctomatic didn't matter, Loopt didn't matter, etherpad didn't matter. The list goes on and on. If you know the right people and jump through the right hoops you get acquihired regardless. The "product" is just a glorified resume for your team. The users who used your product are just kicked by the wayside. They served their purpose. I don't think that sits well with most people. Personally, I'd like to see a complete refocus on companies that actually innovate or god forbid make money.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - throwawaymm 15y ago
    I don't think "most likely outcome" is ever a good thing to cite. There are some ridiculously unprepared people doing crazy idea startups. It's like saying "Most actors end up working in a cafe and die poor". That isn't because it's risky to try to become an actor, it's because so many untalented people want to become actors. It's obviously up to you what you fund, and how you spin aquihires. I personally find things like Loopt to be a big signal to hackers not to bother trying to become a good hacker or make a good product. Which is depressing and demoralising for those who focus on those things.
its_so_on 15y ago
Paul, it's an image thing. You even put a teaser out there about the next step ("We'll consider single founders too")... You already said that experience is not necessary. So we are ALREADY at: "Apply with no experience, no idea, no team." There is only one next logical step. You're still 'buying the man/woman'. The last step is: "New, apply to YC anonymously, without ever going or revealing who you are. No need to come even if you're accepted, we'll webinar the whole kebab and you can stay behind a skype handle and email." Paul, I would like to do this! Please allow me to apply anonymously, without ever going or revealing who I am. (Of course, you'll know everything about the resulting company.) You might just be surprised...
EzGraphs 15y ago
Granting that startups frequently change direction quickly and radically... I would still evaluate someone who is moving in a direction differently than one who is not. Choice of a direction (including an active decision and specific concrete work on a project) is also a reflection of character (a personal characteristic - not merely ideas).

by paul 15y ago

apu 15y ago

Perhaps it's just me, but I feel like HN comments overall have gotten significantly more negative in the past few months. I can't recall reading the comments section for any recent startup launch or sale without at least half the commenters tearing it apart, often with almost no information to back it up.

craze3 15y ago

The team that finds their perfect-fitting idea is the team that's going to prosper. Couldn't agree more. I think the reason that a portion of the public is acting negatively is because they're afraid that these changes will cause YC to become a playground for non-technical cofounders and nutjobs with ideas. I have confidence that the partners won't let this happen. They've already shown their willingness to revert back if it doesn't work out (limited trial run), so I really don't understand why people are pissed.

rdl 15y ago

The main downside I see is that it will be harder to evaluate teams if they don't have an idea to talk about in the app and interview -- even the idea is totally throwaway. It doesn't seem like a bad idea, but I think the RFS already fills this need (as long as people know they can apply with an RFS but then do something different)

pg 15y ago
We have an idea for that actually.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- einhverfr 15y ago
  The other side to this (as I am sure you are aware) is that if this experiment fails it means one of two things: 1) It's a bad idea, or 2) The implementation needs work I think the biggest difficulty in assessing things will be if it doesn't meet expectations, determining which of these applies after the fact.
  - rdl 15y ago
    Assuming the YC guys get about 3000 applications (based on published acceptance rates and class sizes), they can probably either do some a/b tests in the reviewing process, or just substitute extra manual labor to evaluate based on other metrics if something goes wrong. It's not all all-or-nothing single test.
    - einhverfr 15y ago
      That misunderstands the problem. Metrics only get you so far. They don't really tell you why you fail. They only tell you how far you are along your plan to succeed, and whether it is matching expectations. But if things are failing, they can't tell you why, particularly in an experiment like this. Maybe it is genuinely a bad idea and nothing will make it succeed. Maybe it is a good idea but needs to be gone about differently. In other words, you can show that you are doing what you think you need to do to be successful, and that you are not being successful, but you can;t show what changes you need to make in order to be successful. The solutions do require manual labor, but they require creative labor. This area is more art than science. If I was doing this I would assemble a list of reasons why this experiment will fail up front. I would revisit the lists in a year or so. I would ask which ones played into the problem. I would then ask what could be done about it. But that's me. Others have to find their own ways.
DilipJ 15y ago
I agree. If you don't have an idea, on what basis are they judging you? what is their filtering process? If you are in your early twenties, what exactly have you accomplished that would separate you from the herd? Nothing, except which schools you have attended. I'm guessing the main filtering process YC will do is to filter based on which schools you attended, so in that way, YC is basically adopting the recruiting process that investment banks do. I wonder what % of those YC funds attended the Ivy League or other private u's vs. those who went to state schools?

mirsadm 15y ago

Considering all signs point to "we fund people not ideas", I'm surprised by the reaction as well.

citricsquid 15y ago

I think the negativity is a result of hn being a community where what you are is meaningless, it's about what you do. Walking into YC with a nice haircut, suit and the ability to sell yourself doesn't fit the idea most people here have about entrepreneurship. It makes perfect business sense for you, the reasons you outline are sound and I'm sure it will bring YC a lot of success, but it doesn't fit with what the (average) community member here thinks about entrepreneurship. That's my understanding of the negativity, could be off the mark but it seems the most logical conclusion.

paul 15y ago
You underestimate us. The people we accept without an idea most likely have accomplished a lot. They simply don't have an idea that they are excited about, perhaps because they've been focused on accomplishing something else. Also, I don't think we've ever accepted anyone who wore a suit to interviews.
- thesauce25 15y ago
  Note to self: If offered an interview, do not wear a suit.
  - blhack 15y ago
    Isn't this kindof given on the west coast? I can't imagine a single hacker I know wearing a suit (and meaning it).
    - SatvikBeri 15y ago
      People who're not on the west coast apply to YC too.
    - thesauce25 15y ago
      For me personally, I've always worn suits to interviews, but they haven't been for hacker positions. For me it was to show that I took the application process seriously and I really wanted the position.

IsaacL 15y ago

I'm curious -- it looks like there is nowhere on the application form to describe your idea. That is, you're not just letting people apply without an idea, you're stopping them from applying with an idea. Is that intentional?

Harj 15y ago
This is a separate application form for people with no idea. You can still apply with an idea via the regular application form: http://ycombinator.com/apply.html http://ycombinator.com/apply.html
- dwynings 15y ago
  Clicking through that link still shows the no-idea app for me.
  - Timothee 15y ago
    Same for me. PG et al, you might want to look into it.
    - pg 15y ago
      That's because your application this cycle is now a no-idea application. You can change that using http://news.ycombinator.com/change-idea-status http://news.ycombinator.com/change-idea-status. (There will be a FAQ about this sort of thing, but I wanted to get this launched today and only had 10 minutes to do it in before I had to go to office hours.)
paul 15y ago
We still prefer that people apply with ideas. All that's new is that we've added an option for people to apply without one. All else equal, a team with a good idea has a much better chance of being accepted than one without.

itsnotme 15y ago

I'm not surprised to see this reaction. The folks who react strongly against this announcement have ideas, and think these ideas make them special. We've all worked with that girl who succeeded at everything she touched. We'd hire her in a heartbeat, for any project, because she figures out how to make it work the best it can. If she's around, we can step back a bit and trust, and the project turns out better than if we'd run it our self. She's worth way more than the guy who farts great ideas.

mikeklaas 15y ago
As someone with a negative reaction to this idea, I think your characterization is off base. Nor is it a problem of fairness—I don't care who yc accepts nor am I interested in participating in yc. I have a negative reaction because although I agree with the principle of funding people in general, I'm skeptical of the idea of people who "want to be entrepreneurs" rather than people who become entrepreneurs to achieve something specific. (I've already made one comment to this effect that was downvoted to oblivion.) It's not that ideas are worthwhile and are what you should get into yc. I am skeptical that a good founder wouldn't be able to come up with scads of potential ways they want to change the world.
- larrys 15y ago
  I think by definition (and having attended an entrepreneurial program at a fine school, coming from an entrepreneurial family, and having hung around entrepreneurs most of my life) I can't imagine someone who is an entrepreneur not having a zillion ideas that they think of all on their own. To make money that is. The problem with most entrepreneurs is that they have to many ideas. That doesn't mean they are good ideas of course (by the definition of YC).
  - fatihdonmez 15y ago
    yes it's the main problem actually.. How to pick the best one between to many ideas to start.. Maybe they can start a program for it, apply with many we help you to choose one..

rokhayakebe 15y ago

I am with you 100%, but let me explain what they are thinking: "I have a 6 figure job, a nice home, a luxury car, but she choose this artist without 30 cents in his bank account." The attitude says more about the commentor than the concept they are complaining about.

einhverfr 15y ago

Here's what I would worry about. Obviously the YC folks know what they are doing generally and this is an experiment that may fail or may succeed. So this is offered in the spirit of addressing a possible issue. If you haven't thought about it, at least thinking about it may help you avoid it. What I would worry about would be the fact that there is a difference between being given an idea and turning around a general idea into something new. If you are already in business, and you are going to be successful, turning around an idea you already have into something different is a familiar process and a necessary skill. On the other hand, the question becomes what happens with those who don't have an idea? I can't speak for the people who will apply, but I know there is a huge difference between the attention I put into working on my own ideas and working on other people's. Ok, these categories aren't mutually exclusive. These aren't really comparable. Even if forced by circumstance into doing a specific thing for a business, it's different than being essentially hired by investors to implement their ideas. Again these aren't mutually exclusive categories or anything, but they represent something I would hope you'd be careful about. One way to go about this would be to work with such people to find ideas after accepting them. Being excited about something is important in running a business regardless of its size or scope. Your response suggests you are aware of this. So maybe all of this just acts as validation that you are on the right path.

dwd 15y ago

Given the number of acquisitions that are really about the talent - this makes a lot of sense.

throwawaymm 15y ago

The negativity comes from the fact that more and more "startups" are just being 'bought' and shutdown. In the past, I think people applying to YC would have thought they could become the next Google. Now, it's more likely their startup will be 'aquihired' and they'll end up working at Facebook or Google. It's a glorified jobs board. With this announcement, it's basically an admission that the idea never mattered. Posterous didn't matter, Auctomatic didn't matter, Loopt didn't matter, etherpad didn't matter. The list goes on and on. If you know the right people and jump through the right hoops you get acquihired regardless. The "product" is just a glorified resume for your team. The users who used your product are just kicked by the wayside. They served their purpose. I don't think that sits well with most people. Personally, I'd like to see a complete refocus on companies that actually innovate or god forbid make money.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- throwawaymm 15y ago
  I don't think "most likely outcome" is ever a good thing to cite. There are some ridiculously unprepared people doing crazy idea startups. It's like saying "Most actors end up working in a cafe and die poor". That isn't because it's risky to try to become an actor, it's because so many untalented people want to become actors. It's obviously up to you what you fund, and how you spin aquihires. I personally find things like Loopt to be a big signal to hackers not to bother trying to become a good hacker or make a good product. Which is depressing and demoralising for those who focus on those things.

its_so_on 15y ago

Paul, it's an image thing. You even put a teaser out there about the next step ("We'll consider single founders too")... You already said that experience is not necessary. So we are ALREADY at: "Apply with no experience, no idea, no team." There is only one next logical step. You're still 'buying the man/woman'. The last step is: "New, apply to YC anonymously, without ever going or revealing who you are. No need to come even if you're accepted, we'll webinar the whole kebab and you can stay behind a skype handle and email." Paul, I would like to do this! Please allow me to apply anonymously, without ever going or revealing who I am. (Of course, you'll know everything about the resulting company.) You might just be surprised...

EzGraphs 15y ago

Granting that startups frequently change direction quickly and radically... I would still evaluate someone who is moving in a direction differently than one who is not. Choice of a direction (including an active decision and specific concrete work on a project) is also a reflection of character (a personal characteristic - not merely ideas).