3 ms·

Right that ends up being the same thing. They are making your redistribution a violation of that (sub?)contract

insanitybit 3y ago
That's not the same thing. You can do everything the GPL allows you to do, you are not restricted from that. But RHEL gets to choose who their customers are and they won't choose you. You can't force them to take you on as a customer, no license can
- indigodaddy 3y ago
  You’re misunderstanding me. RHEL is saying that to be/maintain as a customer, you have to not redistribute the received product, correct? So, again, to become a customer and receive a product where the license of that product dictates you CAN redistribute, you MUST first enter into another contract that says if you redistribute the product, it may violate your standing as a customer and jeopardize your chances of receiving any future product. Of course it’s a loophole, and I really hope it gets to court somehow because I doubt it would stand up. Just my opinion. I don’t know anything about GPL law, but it doesn’t seem logical that this is something that would be able to stand.
  - insanitybit 3y ago
    It's not a loophole. You have every right you were guaranteed by the license. RHEL also has the right to choose their customers. They choose customers who don't exercise the rights granted by the license. This is all fine and compatible. I hate to use an anecdote but consider that you have some rights that you may exercise - say, free speech. You then come to me and enter into a contract. I am within my rights to not renew that contract if I dislike the things you say under your pre-existing right to free speech, and in fact, I can put it into our contract that I will cancel it if you exercise that right in a way I don't like. This is normal and commonplace. edit: Please do not engage with the anecdote. It's meant to be helpful, not be literally equivalent in a legal sense. This is why I hate anecdotesssss
    - beanjuiceII 3y ago
      this might be the best way to say it I've seen
    - indigodaddy 3y ago
      The free speech analogy doesn’t hold water for me. Free speech is extremely broad. “You can redistribute” is extremely specific and precise, and RH is effectively stripping this very precise and extremely specific right from you if you want to be/maintain as a “customer”
      - insanitybit 3y ago
        It doesn't need to hold water for you as long as you get my point. It sounds like you don't though and for some reason "broad" and "precise" are factoring into this for you - you should justify that.
    - SkyBelow 3y ago
      Given the First Amendment is a limitation on the government, let's apply this logic to a government service. If the government was to say, stop you from accessing the public library due to the speech you engage in, but did not criminally punishing you for the speech, would this be a First Amendment violation? I think so. Another, perhaps more realistic example, is a government employer choosing to fire an employee who was caught using their free speech to advocate for a political challenger to the office they work under. Firing a person is not criminally punishing them, and in general an employer can fire an employee for what they say, but in this specific case, because the First Amendment limits the government, they couldn't do this. If you were working for private political organization, they likely could do this as the First Amendment wouldn't apply to the private organization.
      - secabeen 3y ago
        > If you were working for private political organization, they likely could do this as the First Amendment wouldn't apply to the private organization. Depends on the state, many have added political beliefs to their anti-discrimination laws, and such an act would be prohibited, but at the federal level this would be fine.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    The key here is future versions of RHEL. They can't and won't cut you off from the version of RHEL that they already distributed to you, but if you use it to build a clone distro, then they don't have to sell you a future version of RHEL.
  - pabs3 3y ago
    It isn't quite correct that RedHat is saying that, IIRC from the LWN discussions, the clause is about giving someone who doesn't have a subscription the benefits they would have if they had a subscription. So it would be fine to redistribute in some cases but not others. Probably fine to redistribute every update to entities who already have a subscription, or to redistribute one package to a contractor working on fixing a bug for you etc.

That's not the same thing. You can do everything the GPL allows you to do, you are not restricted from that. But RHEL gets to choose who their customers are and they won't choose you. You can't force them to take you on as a customer, no license can

indigodaddy 3y ago
You’re misunderstanding me. RHEL is saying that to be/maintain as a customer, you have to not redistribute the received product, correct? So, again, to become a customer and receive a product where the license of that product dictates you CAN redistribute, you MUST first enter into another contract that says if you redistribute the product, it may violate your standing as a customer and jeopardize your chances of receiving any future product. Of course it’s a loophole, and I really hope it gets to court somehow because I doubt it would stand up. Just my opinion. I don’t know anything about GPL law, but it doesn’t seem logical that this is something that would be able to stand.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  It's not a loophole. You have every right you were guaranteed by the license. RHEL also has the right to choose their customers. They choose customers who don't exercise the rights granted by the license. This is all fine and compatible. I hate to use an anecdote but consider that you have some rights that you may exercise - say, free speech. You then come to me and enter into a contract. I am within my rights to not renew that contract if I dislike the things you say under your pre-existing right to free speech, and in fact, I can put it into our contract that I will cancel it if you exercise that right in a way I don't like. This is normal and commonplace. edit: Please do not engage with the anecdote. It's meant to be helpful, not be literally equivalent in a legal sense. This is why I hate anecdotesssss
  - beanjuiceII 3y ago
    this might be the best way to say it I've seen
  - indigodaddy 3y ago
    The free speech analogy doesn’t hold water for me. Free speech is extremely broad. “You can redistribute” is extremely specific and precise, and RH is effectively stripping this very precise and extremely specific right from you if you want to be/maintain as a “customer”
    - insanitybit 3y ago
      It doesn't need to hold water for you as long as you get my point. It sounds like you don't though and for some reason "broad" and "precise" are factoring into this for you - you should justify that.
  - SkyBelow 3y ago
    Given the First Amendment is a limitation on the government, let's apply this logic to a government service. If the government was to say, stop you from accessing the public library due to the speech you engage in, but did not criminally punishing you for the speech, would this be a First Amendment violation? I think so. Another, perhaps more realistic example, is a government employer choosing to fire an employee who was caught using their free speech to advocate for a political challenger to the office they work under. Firing a person is not criminally punishing them, and in general an employer can fire an employee for what they say, but in this specific case, because the First Amendment limits the government, they couldn't do this. If you were working for private political organization, they likely could do this as the First Amendment wouldn't apply to the private organization.
    - secabeen 3y ago
      > If you were working for private political organization, they likely could do this as the First Amendment wouldn't apply to the private organization. Depends on the state, many have added political beliefs to their anti-discrimination laws, and such an act would be prohibited, but at the federal level this would be fine.
- freedomben 3y ago
  The key here is future versions of RHEL. They can't and won't cut you off from the version of RHEL that they already distributed to you, but if you use it to build a clone distro, then they don't have to sell you a future version of RHEL.
- pabs3 3y ago
  It isn't quite correct that RedHat is saying that, IIRC from the LWN discussions, the clause is about giving someone who doesn't have a subscription the benefits they would have if they had a subscription. So it would be fine to redistribute in some cases but not others. Probably fine to redistribute every update to entities who already have a subscription, or to redistribute one package to a contractor working on fixing a bug for you etc.