7 ms·

> That means the FTC has negotiated a settlement where the distress caused by harassing the same person 100 times in a row, day after day over the period of a f

> That means the FTC has negotiated a settlement where the distress caused by harassing the same person 100 times in a row, day after day over the period of a few months, merits the measly penalty of $1.25. Honest question: why can’t the victims sue the company for harassment? (or rather a lawyer start a class action). I’m sure a jury trial would award very large damages, or is this protected by free speech in the US?

alexmarcy 3y ago
In most cases because it is impossible to find out who is doing the calling because the numbers are spoofed. For example, when my phone receives a call from my own phone number am I going to sue myself? There is no way to track down the actual caller in most cases.
- RajT88 3y ago
  When you ask for the company name, they hang up on you usually. You have to sound like a potential buyer (sucker) in order for them to properly identify themselves. This is true for Auto Warranty, Medicare, Timeshares, etc. robocallers.
  - ipython 3y ago
    Exactly right. It’s actually a fun exercise in social engineering, and can be a fascinating sociological experiment if you’re into that sort of thing. The most successful persona unfortunately is that of a slightly senile senior citizen. Senile enough that you seem gullible to the caller, but believable that you have enough money and sense to continue with the transaction.
    - RajT88 3y ago
      Correct. Sounding old and slightly senile is what gets them on the hook most effectively. Unfortunately - when they're calling, they also seem to have all your personal info, and know your name and how old you are. So I put on my best senile guy voice, they confirm my name, and then they hang up. It's actually quite concerning!
      - ipython 3y ago
        I have several personas that have made the rounds in the underground somewhere. It’s actually kind of interesting - I made up a persona back in 2016 or so and even six years later I’ll get calls for that “person”. So while sometimes the information is legitimate - especially if you’re not opted out of the major internet people search engines (ref optery which is a yc graduate company) - but you can also “poison the well” enough to get your fake persona disseminated.
    - sydbarrett74 3y ago
      I love watching videos of Kitboga and some of the other scam-baiters impersonate elderly individuals and then unmask themselves at the very end.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    The money has to be sent somewhere. Those accounts are usually more traceable.
  - squeaky-clean 3y ago
    In my experience it's usually a 2-step system. I get a spam call frome either a robot voice or someone with a heavy accent. This company is generally not based in the US. After collecting some basic information like your name and eligibility for Medicare, they forward you to a US based company. I'm not a lawyer, but even though the foreign scam call company illegally called you, I don't believe the US based company is liable for anything because the scammers make you agree to be transferred to a Medicare licensing office.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  I got a lot of telemarketers calling from numbers that only show up on my phone as "Restricted". So there isn't even a phone number to trace.
  - snarfy 3y ago
    Do you answer those calls? Caller ID is default on. You have to do work to turn it off. If they did that work, I don't answer.
- Libcat99 3y ago
  Your carrier can trace it back. They have more information than just the spoofed CID. They almost certainly don't have ALL the information, but they'll know which carrier sent them the call, who can then look into it... and on back to the source carrier.
rolph 3y ago
i think you would have to communicate your desire not to be contacted, then it can be telephonic/electronic harrasment. so far, good luck actually getting any meaningful contact with these entities.
barbazoo 3y ago
Is there a "company" behind this that could be sued? Aren't those calls mostly coming from countries that don't care?
- ipython 3y ago
  I am not a lawyer so take what I say with a grain of salt. The last suit I filed against a telemarketer was against the “beneficiary” company as the lead generator who called me was of course overseas. They claimed that they could not be held vicariously liable for the calls but ultimately settled with me because litigating that would cost a lot more money than the settlement amount. Some state statutes go further than the tcpa and address vicarious liability specifically, so if you’re in one of those states you have a stronger legal leg to stand on.
  - robotnikman 3y ago
    Based on the amount of time you spent as a pro se litigant, was the payout worth the time spent? I'm wondering if I should try this myself.
    - ipython 3y ago
      Pro se just means I did it myself - no lawyer involved. My costs therefore were limited to filing and service fees (about $100). I’d say I spent about 10 hours working on it (spare time over weekends etc). My settlement amount in that case was several thousand dollars after an in person negotiation with their lawyer (they had to fly in to my local court for an 8am Monday morning hearing time). It was worth it to me at the time but the biggest issue is you don’t have control over when the calls come in- so you have to spend some time up front social engineering these people to get the information you need during inconvenient times of the day.
      - shiftpgdn 3y ago
        I hold an electricians license in Texas and get an absolute truckload of spam texts and calls with regard to my license renewals. What's a good way for me to get started with doing research on how to start filing litigation?
ipython 3y ago
The short answer is, you can, but it takes a lot of work. I’ve settled with several telemarketers who have called me (as a pro se litigant) and forwarded information that helped a large telecom company back in 2008 with their suit against one of the infamous auto warranty robocallers. I’ve found that many people are fascinated by the stories but nobody that I know of has gone on to actually take these people to court themselves.
- KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
  How much did you settle for on average?
  - ipython 3y ago
    Average is about $3000. I tend to only go after the most egregious violators so this amount represents at least 5-10 calls all after being asked to be placed on their do not call list.
    - bippihippi1 3y ago
      how do you prove it's the same people if they use different numbers?
      - ipython 3y ago
        Typically these guys will use the same prerecorded message for all phone calls. I'll record one of them when it's convenient for me, then just note every phone number and time of day I receive another call with the same message. The messages are very distinct so it's not hard to keep track. The hardest part is having a note taking system that's truly portable as these calls come at the worst possible times. The first few times they call, I'll ask to be placed on the do not call list (and record that fact in my notes as well). Of course, they'll continue to call... so then it's on to social engineer the name of the company or beneficiary company (if a lead generator is calling you rather than the company itself). Once I've figured out the name of the company, then I have to basically do the whole thing in reverse: I find a "legitimate" number for the company (off the website, whatever) and get a customer service associate to read off my fake customer information back to me. It's important to keep receipts. The attorneys for these companies don't give up easily. They'll come up with all sorts of excuses - we don't make outgoing calls, its not us (OK then how did I get your company name?); how do you know it's XYZ company? (because Bob gave me the name when I received the call); how do you know that someone didn't falsely give our company name to defame us? (because I called the number for XYZ and Dave was able to look up my "customer" record) Once you show that you have receipts and you're serious, they generally fold very quickly.
deltree7 3y ago
[dead]
criddell 3y ago
You would win and then find out the company assets are $10,000 worth of office furniture, a k-cup machine, and a network switch.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  What flavor K-Cups are we talking? And is the switch 10/100?
- rolph 3y ago
  i would accept that as compensation, its a good start for a haxspace.
  - borski 3y ago
    Split across everyone in the class?
    - rolph 3y ago
      https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/how-start-class-action-lawsuit/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/how-sta... not authoritative, but general trend is ~ 40 plaintiff are acceptable minimum cohort for a class, but that can be even smaller, a class of 1 is feasible but very uncommon.
  - afavour 3y ago
    Unfortunately you’re going to need to pay the lawyers that won you the case too.
    - coding123 3y ago
      There's some guy out there doing this kind of thing without lawyers and wins every time, and is making a living on it. It was posted on HN some years ago.
      - ronsor 3y ago
giantg2 3y ago
You probably could, but likely would have needed a cease and desist letter involved at some point.
cvoss 3y ago
It's important to raise the topic of a lawsuit here, as distinct from the concept of a government fine, which exposes, in my opinion, an error in the reasoning of the line you quoted. If you are speeding and get hit with a $X speeding ticket, this does not suggest that the local authorities believe the threat to public safety you were caught making is somehow worth $X in damages. It means the local authorities believe an $X fine is sufficient to deter you from doing this again, and that the prospect of an $X fine is sufficient to deter others from doing this in the first place. Now, if you actually cause injury or damage, we are in a whole different ball park and you may be sued for a heck of lot more than $X. The value of damages should be expected to far exceed the value of a fine. So getting back to the quote from the article, I don't think it makes sense to put the fine amount on one side of the scales and the damage caused on the other. That's not what fines are for. The fine money won't even go to the injured party anyway.
- thfuran 3y ago
  What belongs on the other side of the scales is the revenue generated by the illegal telemarketing.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    That's a non-sequitur for fines. I'm going to be fined the same for speeding whether I'm late for my flight (no financial return), or I'm participating in an illegal street race in which I win $10,000. Some spamming campaigns do not expect revenue (e.g. recent convictions for a targeted voter misinformation robocall campaign whose desired outcome was to discourage the targets from voting). Tying fines to revenue won't affect the $0-revenue campaigns
    - thfuran 3y ago
      I'm not saying that the fine should be some fixed percentage of the revenue, I'm saying that it absolutely must be high enough to ensure the expected profit of just eating the fines and carrying on is negative. A sufficiently small fraction of speeding is revenue-generating that it's likely not worth the trouble, but in that example, you should probably be fined $10,050 or something. Though speeding tickets are a bit different because they already also come with points and a path to revocation of license.
e40 3y ago
Most of the companies in this space are breaking so many laws they are operating outside the US. Near the beginning of the pandemic, when they resumed their calls (that WAS a nice few months!) I would mess with them. I could keep the "Mexican vacation" scam calls on the line for 20 minutes before telling them I knew they were scammers. About 1/2 the time they hung up, but the other times they would argue with me about why I would do this. The initial call was clearly someone outside the US. The 2nd level was someone with better English skills, but the real scammers at the 3rd level spoke perfect English and were likely inside the US. And, the initial call to me was from a spoofed number, likely from an owned PBX. It's a LOT of work to track down these companies. There was a particular scam related to CC rates and I was able to find a lawyer in TX that had successfully prosecuted the company that did the scam. I called him and he picked up after 1 ring. We had a nice conversation, but his advice was: do not mess with these people (by wasting their time intentionally). They are not nice people and after he helped shut them down, they just popped up somewhere else.

alexmarcy 3y ago

In most cases because it is impossible to find out who is doing the calling because the numbers are spoofed. For example, when my phone receives a call from my own phone number am I going to sue myself? There is no way to track down the actual caller in most cases.

RajT88 3y ago
When you ask for the company name, they hang up on you usually. You have to sound like a potential buyer (sucker) in order for them to properly identify themselves. This is true for Auto Warranty, Medicare, Timeshares, etc. robocallers.
- ipython 3y ago
  Exactly right. It’s actually a fun exercise in social engineering, and can be a fascinating sociological experiment if you’re into that sort of thing. The most successful persona unfortunately is that of a slightly senile senior citizen. Senile enough that you seem gullible to the caller, but believable that you have enough money and sense to continue with the transaction.
  - RajT88 3y ago
    Correct. Sounding old and slightly senile is what gets them on the hook most effectively. Unfortunately - when they're calling, they also seem to have all your personal info, and know your name and how old you are. So I put on my best senile guy voice, they confirm my name, and then they hang up. It's actually quite concerning!
    - ipython 3y ago
      I have several personas that have made the rounds in the underground somewhere. It’s actually kind of interesting - I made up a persona back in 2016 or so and even six years later I’ll get calls for that “person”. So while sometimes the information is legitimate - especially if you’re not opted out of the major internet people search engines (ref optery which is a yc graduate company) - but you can also “poison the well” enough to get your fake persona disseminated.
  - sydbarrett74 3y ago
    I love watching videos of Kitboga and some of the other scam-baiters impersonate elderly individuals and then unmask themselves at the very end.
- giantg2 3y ago
  The money has to be sent somewhere. Those accounts are usually more traceable.
- squeaky-clean 3y ago
  In my experience it's usually a 2-step system. I get a spam call frome either a robot voice or someone with a heavy accent. This company is generally not based in the US. After collecting some basic information like your name and eligibility for Medicare, they forward you to a US based company. I'm not a lawyer, but even though the foreign scam call company illegally called you, I don't believe the US based company is liable for anything because the scammers make you agree to be transferred to a Medicare licensing office.
pmoriarty 3y ago
I got a lot of telemarketers calling from numbers that only show up on my phone as "Restricted". So there isn't even a phone number to trace.
- snarfy 3y ago
  Do you answer those calls? Caller ID is default on. You have to do work to turn it off. If they did that work, I don't answer.
Libcat99 3y ago
Your carrier can trace it back. They have more information than just the spoofed CID. They almost certainly don't have ALL the information, but they'll know which carrier sent them the call, who can then look into it... and on back to the source carrier.

rolph 3y ago

i think you would have to communicate your desire not to be contacted, then it can be telephonic/electronic harrasment. so far, good luck actually getting any meaningful contact with these entities.

barbazoo 3y ago

Is there a "company" behind this that could be sued? Aren't those calls mostly coming from countries that don't care?

ipython 3y ago
I am not a lawyer so take what I say with a grain of salt. The last suit I filed against a telemarketer was against the “beneficiary” company as the lead generator who called me was of course overseas. They claimed that they could not be held vicariously liable for the calls but ultimately settled with me because litigating that would cost a lot more money than the settlement amount. Some state statutes go further than the tcpa and address vicarious liability specifically, so if you’re in one of those states you have a stronger legal leg to stand on.
- robotnikman 3y ago
  Based on the amount of time you spent as a pro se litigant, was the payout worth the time spent? I'm wondering if I should try this myself.
  - ipython 3y ago
    Pro se just means I did it myself - no lawyer involved. My costs therefore were limited to filing and service fees (about $100). I’d say I spent about 10 hours working on it (spare time over weekends etc). My settlement amount in that case was several thousand dollars after an in person negotiation with their lawyer (they had to fly in to my local court for an 8am Monday morning hearing time). It was worth it to me at the time but the biggest issue is you don’t have control over when the calls come in- so you have to spend some time up front social engineering these people to get the information you need during inconvenient times of the day.
    - shiftpgdn 3y ago
      I hold an electricians license in Texas and get an absolute truckload of spam texts and calls with regard to my license renewals. What's a good way for me to get started with doing research on how to start filing litigation?

ipython 3y ago

The short answer is, you can, but it takes a lot of work. I’ve settled with several telemarketers who have called me (as a pro se litigant) and forwarded information that helped a large telecom company back in 2008 with their suit against one of the infamous auto warranty robocallers. I’ve found that many people are fascinated by the stories but nobody that I know of has gone on to actually take these people to court themselves.

KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
How much did you settle for on average?
- ipython 3y ago
  Average is about $3000. I tend to only go after the most egregious violators so this amount represents at least 5-10 calls all after being asked to be placed on their do not call list.
  - bippihippi1 3y ago
    how do you prove it's the same people if they use different numbers?
    - ipython 3y ago
      Typically these guys will use the same prerecorded message for all phone calls. I'll record one of them when it's convenient for me, then just note every phone number and time of day I receive another call with the same message. The messages are very distinct so it's not hard to keep track. The hardest part is having a note taking system that's truly portable as these calls come at the worst possible times. The first few times they call, I'll ask to be placed on the do not call list (and record that fact in my notes as well). Of course, they'll continue to call... so then it's on to social engineer the name of the company or beneficiary company (if a lead generator is calling you rather than the company itself). Once I've figured out the name of the company, then I have to basically do the whole thing in reverse: I find a "legitimate" number for the company (off the website, whatever) and get a customer service associate to read off my fake customer information back to me. It's important to keep receipts. The attorneys for these companies don't give up easily. They'll come up with all sorts of excuses - we don't make outgoing calls, its not us (OK then how did I get your company name?); how do you know it's XYZ company? (because Bob gave me the name when I received the call); how do you know that someone didn't falsely give our company name to defame us? (because I called the number for XYZ and Dave was able to look up my "customer" record) Once you show that you have receipts and you're serious, they generally fold very quickly.

deltree7 3y ago

[dead]

criddell 3y ago

You would win and then find out the company assets are $10,000 worth of office furniture, a k-cup machine, and a network switch.

qingcharles 3y ago
What flavor K-Cups are we talking? And is the switch 10/100?
rolph 3y ago
i would accept that as compensation, its a good start for a haxspace.
- borski 3y ago
  Split across everyone in the class?
  - rolph 3y ago
    https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/how-start-class-action-lawsuit/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/how-sta... not authoritative, but general trend is ~ 40 plaintiff are acceptable minimum cohort for a class, but that can be even smaller, a class of 1 is feasible but very uncommon.
- afavour 3y ago
  Unfortunately you’re going to need to pay the lawyers that won you the case too.
  - coding123 3y ago
    There's some guy out there doing this kind of thing without lawyers and wins every time, and is making a living on it. It was posted on HN some years ago.
    - ronsor 3y ago

giantg2 3y ago

You probably could, but likely would have needed a cease and desist letter involved at some point.

cvoss 3y ago

It's important to raise the topic of a lawsuit here, as distinct from the concept of a government fine, which exposes, in my opinion, an error in the reasoning of the line you quoted. If you are speeding and get hit with a $X speeding ticket, this does not suggest that the local authorities believe the threat to public safety you were caught making is somehow worth $X in damages. It means the local authorities believe an $X fine is sufficient to deter you from doing this again, and that the prospect of an $X fine is sufficient to deter others from doing this in the first place. Now, if you actually cause injury or damage, we are in a whole different ball park and you may be sued for a heck of lot more than $X. The value of damages should be expected to far exceed the value of a fine. So getting back to the quote from the article, I don't think it makes sense to put the fine amount on one side of the scales and the damage caused on the other. That's not what fines are for. The fine money won't even go to the injured party anyway.

thfuran 3y ago
What belongs on the other side of the scales is the revenue generated by the illegal telemarketing.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  That's a non-sequitur for fines. I'm going to be fined the same for speeding whether I'm late for my flight (no financial return), or I'm participating in an illegal street race in which I win $10,000. Some spamming campaigns do not expect revenue (e.g. recent convictions for a targeted voter misinformation robocall campaign whose desired outcome was to discourage the targets from voting). Tying fines to revenue won't affect the $0-revenue campaigns
  - thfuran 3y ago
    I'm not saying that the fine should be some fixed percentage of the revenue, I'm saying that it absolutely must be high enough to ensure the expected profit of just eating the fines and carrying on is negative. A sufficiently small fraction of speeding is revenue-generating that it's likely not worth the trouble, but in that example, you should probably be fined $10,050 or something. Though speeding tickets are a bit different because they already also come with points and a path to revocation of license.

e40 3y ago

Most of the companies in this space are breaking so many laws they are operating outside the US. Near the beginning of the pandemic, when they resumed their calls (that WAS a nice few months!) I would mess with them. I could keep the "Mexican vacation" scam calls on the line for 20 minutes before telling them I knew they were scammers. About 1/2 the time they hung up, but the other times they would argue with me about why I would do this. The initial call was clearly someone outside the US. The 2nd level was someone with better English skills, but the real scammers at the 3rd level spoke perfect English and were likely inside the US. And, the initial call to me was from a spoofed number, likely from an owned PBX. It's a LOT of work to track down these companies. There was a particular scam related to CC rates and I was able to find a lawyer in TX that had successfully prosecuted the company that did the scam. I called him and he picked up after 1 ring. We had a nice conversation, but his advice was: do not mess with these people (by wasting their time intentionally). They are not nice people and after he helped shut them down, they just popped up somewhere else.