6 ms·

I feel upset when I see stuff like this, because we are next in line. You would think people would take it seriously and try to address it, but apparently the

I feel upset when I see stuff like this, because we are next in line. You would think people would take it seriously and try to address it, but apparently the narrative is still "muh taxez" so nothing can be done except go on social media and say that climate change isn't real and all the magatards click like and subscribe.

jdjdjdhhd 3y ago
Calling people magatards probably doesn't help much
- jfghi 3y ago
  Given the set of beliefs and cultish adherence to a ridiculous abusive father figure of a leader, a lot of criticism is deserved.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    Honestly, people who say it's great that humans depopulate because that will save the planet scare me more.
    - King-Aaron 3y ago
      Those people don't really scare me, because often they aren't intelligent enough to be making any decisions that influence the situation.
    - dryrun 3y ago
      Why, exactly? Because they mean that we should kill humans en masse? Or because they think having less kids will help? I'm honestly not seeing why you think they are scary, but I may be lacking some context knowledge of these people.
matrix_overload 3y ago
Taking it seriously and addressing involves making a global list of biggest polluters and adopting policies that will make them unprofitable, making less CO2-intense alternatives more competitive. The biggest polluter isn't the US. Most of it comes from China because they don't give a damn, and a lot if it can be addressed by making physical goods last longer and be more repairable. Except, every repair initiative gets quietly swept under the rug. And we're not even considering banning imports and producing things domestically. Instead, we keep coming up with policies that make consumers busy, degrade their life quality, and have marginal effect on the actual amount of CO2 produced. Oh, that, and call everyone who disagrees magatards.
- defrost 3y ago
  The biggest polluter isn't the US. It's been outsourced to China because they make what the west demands. A lot if it can be addressed by having western countries order more costly physical goods that last longer and are more repairable. Per Capita the US remains a leading consumer nation and one that sets an example, that example being to outsource problems and waste.
  - matrix_overload 3y ago
    >A lot if it can be addressed by having western countries order more costly physical goods that last longer and are more repairable. I would love, LOVE to see that. Together with more local production, repair industry with middle-class jobs, and overall education of people on how to take good care of what they own. Except, how many green activists have you seen actually suggesting it? The solutions proposed so far: * Have fewer kids * Eat less meat * Suffer with no A/C * Rent an apartment instead of owning a house * Don't drive outside, sit at home * Don't use plastic bags and straws All of these lower life quality of regular people, are not even in the top 10 of biggest polluters, and often angled towards more wealth transfer to the corporations (like less kids => lower salary expectations). I think, it's a reasonable, rational and well-informed choice to not agree with, and not support these policies.
    - 3y ago
zarathustreal 3y ago
Any time you have an emotional response to a headline, it’s a good indicator that you might be being manipulated. Neutral facts don’t need to enrage us or make us fear for our lives. Remember, there is no “news” in modern day, everything is media.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > Neutral facts don’t need to enrage us… Not if you're numb, but it's healthy and normal to have positive emotional responses to the factually delightful, and negative emotional responses to the factually horrific.
  - brutusborn 3y ago
    I disagree, I think it’s unhealthy for every bit of bad climate news to “upset” you. Same with people claiming ‘climate anxiety’ is good for children because it encourages action: constant negative emotions encourage pointless reflexive behaviour like gluing yourself to a road. Bee colonies in the US have had lots of problems for a long time. Linking bee survival to climate change is an effective way to make heatwave story more exciting. The fear is needed to make it interesting. But the fear isn’t really helpful.
    - mythrwy 3y ago
      It's also bullshit in my estimation. See my top level comment about bees. I've been watching them at my house for years. And this is one of the issues with trumpeting every phenomenon and claiming it means we are immediately doomed (as top level poster does here). When the phenomenon turn out to not be real or not as portrayed then it is assumed there is no real issue. Sort of a boy who cried wolf scenario.
- ed_westin 3y ago
  This runs parallel to the objectivity-subjectivity paradigm. What makes facts neutral to us, if we are interested in the subject in the first place? When is emotion appropriate? I think we are all susceptible to both inuring ourselves as well as being prompted for a reaction.
abeppu 3y ago
What do you mean "next"? People are dying today (and in previous years) from heat waves (and floods, and hurricanes, etc etc). Climate crisis deaths are here, and will only accelerate. I agree, we need to take it seriously, and that does need to involve large public investments, a carbon tax that's comparable to the actual externalities created by emissions, and broadly changing the way a lot of the rich world lives. But maybe recognizing that people are already dying can be a valuable step towards acting in a way commensurate with the scale of the problem? - let's see DAs in locations that have deaths clearly due to climate change bring charges (e.g. manslaughter) against the largest emitters. Every time ExxonMobile is in the news, it should be mentioned as "oil and gas company and manslaughter defendant ExxonMobile" etc. - let's see a serious attempt to tally the number of casualties to the climate crisis there have already been, and put that number on a billboard on a building in Manhattan. Surely the number of people we kill is at least as important as the national debt, right? - let's see some country with whom the US has normally friendly relations, after a climate-crisis disaster, earnestly raise the discussion in an international forum that emissions at current levels, especially given that we have known about the warming impacts of those emissions for _decades_, constitute a form of environmental terrorism. https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/02/asia/south-korea-heatwave-deaths-climate-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/02/asia/south-korea-heatwave-dea... https://www.azfamily.com/2023/08/02/14-additional-deaths-maricopa-county-tied-record-heat-wave-arizona/ https://www.azfamily.com/2023/08/02/14-additional-deaths-mar...
- esalman 3y ago
  Climate change is causing havoc in insured losses year over year. Last few years have seen more over-a-billion-dollar insured losses than ever. So a good place to start would be insurance data.
- esalman 3y ago
  https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-heat-wave-deat-18277324.php https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-heat-...
foobarian 3y ago
You know what bums me out? Those people would be perfectly happy to live in a post-apocalyptic dystopia we get after civilization breaks down. The problem is not to make them understand about climate change consequences; the problem is they understand perfectly well and just don’t care. That’s what we’re up against.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mattpallissard 3y ago
I don't think your attitude helps the narrative. People in industries like agriculture, fishing, and logging/milling have crazy high costs and depend on fossil fuels. A lot of these people care about the planet, but also need to put food in the table. I work with them, live by them, raise my children with them They don't want to fuck up the planet, yet they're demonized for what they do from afar while they provide goods to those that criticize them. They're told what they're doing is bad, but there are no alternatives as of now. The crowd you describe mostly doesn't exist in real life, it's manufactured on the internet. Once we all accept that normal, working, people are all mostly coming from a place of good we can have a productive discussion. Until then, here we are yelling into an echo chamber.

jdjdjdhhd 3y ago

Calling people magatards probably doesn't help much

jfghi 3y ago
Given the set of beliefs and cultish adherence to a ridiculous abusive father figure of a leader, a lot of criticism is deserved.
- twelve40 3y ago
  Honestly, people who say it's great that humans depopulate because that will save the planet scare me more.
  - King-Aaron 3y ago
    Those people don't really scare me, because often they aren't intelligent enough to be making any decisions that influence the situation.
  - dryrun 3y ago
    Why, exactly? Because they mean that we should kill humans en masse? Or because they think having less kids will help? I'm honestly not seeing why you think they are scary, but I may be lacking some context knowledge of these people.

matrix_overload 3y ago

Taking it seriously and addressing involves making a global list of biggest polluters and adopting policies that will make them unprofitable, making less CO2-intense alternatives more competitive. The biggest polluter isn't the US. Most of it comes from China because they don't give a damn, and a lot if it can be addressed by making physical goods last longer and be more repairable. Except, every repair initiative gets quietly swept under the rug. And we're not even considering banning imports and producing things domestically. Instead, we keep coming up with policies that make consumers busy, degrade their life quality, and have marginal effect on the actual amount of CO2 produced. Oh, that, and call everyone who disagrees magatards.

defrost 3y ago
The biggest polluter isn't the US. It's been outsourced to China because they make what the west demands. A lot if it can be addressed by having western countries order more costly physical goods that last longer and are more repairable. Per Capita the US remains a leading consumer nation and one that sets an example, that example being to outsource problems and waste.
- matrix_overload 3y ago
  >A lot if it can be addressed by having western countries order more costly physical goods that last longer and are more repairable. I would love, LOVE to see that. Together with more local production, repair industry with middle-class jobs, and overall education of people on how to take good care of what they own. Except, how many green activists have you seen actually suggesting it? The solutions proposed so far: * Have fewer kids * Eat less meat * Suffer with no A/C * Rent an apartment instead of owning a house * Don't drive outside, sit at home * Don't use plastic bags and straws All of these lower life quality of regular people, are not even in the top 10 of biggest polluters, and often angled towards more wealth transfer to the corporations (like less kids => lower salary expectations). I think, it's a reasonable, rational and well-informed choice to not agree with, and not support these policies.
  - 3y ago

zarathustreal 3y ago

Any time you have an emotional response to a headline, it’s a good indicator that you might be being manipulated. Neutral facts don’t need to enrage us or make us fear for our lives. Remember, there is no “news” in modern day, everything is media.

CharlesW 3y ago
> Neutral facts don’t need to enrage us… Not if you're numb, but it's healthy and normal to have positive emotional responses to the factually delightful, and negative emotional responses to the factually horrific.
- brutusborn 3y ago
  I disagree, I think it’s unhealthy for every bit of bad climate news to “upset” you. Same with people claiming ‘climate anxiety’ is good for children because it encourages action: constant negative emotions encourage pointless reflexive behaviour like gluing yourself to a road. Bee colonies in the US have had lots of problems for a long time. Linking bee survival to climate change is an effective way to make heatwave story more exciting. The fear is needed to make it interesting. But the fear isn’t really helpful.
  - mythrwy 3y ago
    It's also bullshit in my estimation. See my top level comment about bees. I've been watching them at my house for years. And this is one of the issues with trumpeting every phenomenon and claiming it means we are immediately doomed (as top level poster does here). When the phenomenon turn out to not be real or not as portrayed then it is assumed there is no real issue. Sort of a boy who cried wolf scenario.
ed_westin 3y ago
This runs parallel to the objectivity-subjectivity paradigm. What makes facts neutral to us, if we are interested in the subject in the first place? When is emotion appropriate? I think we are all susceptible to both inuring ourselves as well as being prompted for a reaction.

abeppu 3y ago

What do you mean "next"? People are dying today (and in previous years) from heat waves (and floods, and hurricanes, etc etc). Climate crisis deaths are here, and will only accelerate. I agree, we need to take it seriously, and that does need to involve large public investments, a carbon tax that's comparable to the actual externalities created by emissions, and broadly changing the way a lot of the rich world lives. But maybe recognizing that people are already dying can be a valuable step towards acting in a way commensurate with the scale of the problem? - let's see DAs in locations that have deaths clearly due to climate change bring charges (e.g. manslaughter) against the largest emitters. Every time ExxonMobile is in the news, it should be mentioned as "oil and gas company and manslaughter defendant ExxonMobile" etc. - let's see a serious attempt to tally the number of casualties to the climate crisis there have already been, and put that number on a billboard on a building in Manhattan. Surely the number of people we kill is at least as important as the national debt, right? - let's see some country with whom the US has normally friendly relations, after a climate-crisis disaster, earnestly raise the discussion in an international forum that emissions at current levels, especially given that we have known about the warming impacts of those emissions for _decades_, constitute a form of environmental terrorism. https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/02/asia/south-korea-heatwave-deaths-climate-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/02/asia/south-korea-heatwave-dea... https://www.azfamily.com/2023/08/02/14-additional-deaths-maricopa-county-tied-record-heat-wave-arizona/ https://www.azfamily.com/2023/08/02/14-additional-deaths-mar...

esalman 3y ago
Climate change is causing havoc in insured losses year over year. Last few years have seen more over-a-billion-dollar insured losses than ever. So a good place to start would be insurance data.
esalman 3y ago
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-heat-wave-deat-18277324.php https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/texas-heat-...

foobarian 3y ago

You know what bums me out? Those people would be perfectly happy to live in a post-apocalyptic dystopia we get after civilization breaks down. The problem is not to make them understand about climate change consequences; the problem is they understand perfectly well and just don’t care. That’s what we’re up against.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mattpallissard 3y ago

I don't think your attitude helps the narrative. People in industries like agriculture, fishing, and logging/milling have crazy high costs and depend on fossil fuels. A lot of these people care about the planet, but also need to put food in the table. I work with them, live by them, raise my children with them They don't want to fuck up the planet, yet they're demonized for what they do from afar while they provide goods to those that criticize them. They're told what they're doing is bad, but there are no alternatives as of now. The crowd you describe mostly doesn't exist in real life, it's manufactured on the internet. Once we all accept that normal, working, people are all mostly coming from a place of good we can have a productive discussion. Until then, here we are yelling into an echo chamber.