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> You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. I think you are missing the big picture. Assuming that we waste 1 minute of t

by csa 3y ago

> You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. I think you are missing the big picture. Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive, it’s: - 90 minutes of aggregate inefficiency… - to benefit 7 folks who have a much better understanding of the market for their current and future needs… - and 3 people who are scaling their business for years via delegating something they are not good at to folks who are. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had many many dud 90-minute encounters (much less one minute encounters) that were all worth it for the one encounter that moved the needle. This could be sales leads, training, dates, finding new restaurants… there are many domains for which this is true. Frankly, I think that this is a fairly efficient ratio compared to most value-seeking activities in the world. Edit: Note that the close rate was close to 40% live (versus 10% calls) with a non-significant n, so I think the medium itself was one source of inefficiency. The product was clearly needed by our leads, but trust-building was tougher over the phone.

lp0_on_fire 3y ago
> Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You're not entitled to even a second of my time.
- csa 3y ago
  > Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. I’m very curious about why “sales” automatically equates to “trickery” for you. Ethical, high quality sales is the efficient matching of goods and/or services with folks who want them. These types of sales exist and are not as uncommon as some HNers seem to think that they are. > If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You seem to assume that most people are good at finding services they need. In general, I have found this not to be the case both for me and many of my customers (at least not initially). For me personally, I spend a shit ton of time on discovery, and I still find that random ads and sales pitches introduce me to things that I was not aware of. FWIW, my service was a tech service, and my market was decidedly not tech savvy. One of the challenges of the sales process was getting them to understand and believe that we weren’t trying to bamboozle them (as many competitors were). We couldn’t sell them with technical explanations of why we were good or why some other option was not as good — we had to use non-technical explanations and an onboarding process that minimized the friction. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding was in the eating, so we retained customers for much longer than industry average, with most of our churn being due to businesses being sold, closing, or moving beyond what we offered (at which point we referred them to an ethical provider that was appropriate for their newfound needs). > You're not entitled to even a second of my time. Honestly, I think you’re living a lesser life (especially professionally) if you are not willing to defer seconds, minutes, or even hours to speculative engagements. It doesn’t take long to qualify a sales call for fit — the good sales people will know how to what itches they are good at scratching and whether you might have those itches.
  - constantly 3y ago
    Fingers crossed the FTC finds and fines you. If it’s big enough maybe you’ll have some empathy for your victims, or at least the calculus will change in society’s favor.
    - csa 3y ago
      > Fingers crossed the FTC finds and fines you. What exactly would they fine me for? I’m not robo-calling, I’m cold calling. Furthermore, all of my leads are internally generated and qualified B2B leads. There is nothing illegal about this. https://blog.close.com/is-cold-calling-legal/ https://blog.close.com/is-cold-calling-legal/ You seem to have a big bone to pick for a domain you don’t understand very well.
      - myself248 3y ago
        If the law is so far divorced from what everyday people see as a scourge, then perhaps it is the law that has a poor understanding of reality. Just because bothering people is legal doesn't mean it's ethical.
        csa 3y ago
        > what everyday people see as a scourge I think you might be projecting a wee bit too much. I guess you missed the following quote in the article I linked to (emphasis mine): “Only 2% of cold calls convert. But 69% of buyers are willing to take a cold call, and 57% of C-level buyers want sales reps to contact them first.” Most savvy business people are willing to take speculative engagements (within reason) — it’s just +ev to do so. Let me be charitable and say that I think that a lot of tech sales is low quality (e.g., trying to force fit when there isn’t much/any) or downright scams (e.g., the alleged yelp “protection money” gambit), so I can understand that a tech-oriented community may be a bit jaded. That said, low quality sales interactions are not the norm in large swathes of the economy — it’s just as much or more of a waste of time for the sales person as it is for the potential buyer.
ryandrake 3y ago
From your point of view, it's great--there's no downside. A little "Aggregate inefficiency" as you put it. From the point of view of the victims (or leads, as you might describe them), 70% deftly avoided you and 20% were annoyed that you intruded on their lives, albeit briefly. Or put another way, for every new customer you got, you actively annoyed ~7 of them, and confirmed the problem of unsolicited phone calls for a further ~23 of them.

by csa 3y ago

lp0_on_fire 3y ago

> Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You're not entitled to even a second of my time.

csa 3y ago
> Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. I’m very curious about why “sales” automatically equates to “trickery” for you. Ethical, high quality sales is the efficient matching of goods and/or services with folks who want them. These types of sales exist and are not as uncommon as some HNers seem to think that they are. > If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You seem to assume that most people are good at finding services they need. In general, I have found this not to be the case both for me and many of my customers (at least not initially). For me personally, I spend a shit ton of time on discovery, and I still find that random ads and sales pitches introduce me to things that I was not aware of. FWIW, my service was a tech service, and my market was decidedly not tech savvy. One of the challenges of the sales process was getting them to understand and believe that we weren’t trying to bamboozle them (as many competitors were). We couldn’t sell them with technical explanations of why we were good or why some other option was not as good — we had to use non-technical explanations and an onboarding process that minimized the friction. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding was in the eating, so we retained customers for much longer than industry average, with most of our churn being due to businesses being sold, closing, or moving beyond what we offered (at which point we referred them to an ethical provider that was appropriate for their newfound needs). > You're not entitled to even a second of my time. Honestly, I think you’re living a lesser life (especially professionally) if you are not willing to defer seconds, minutes, or even hours to speculative engagements. It doesn’t take long to qualify a sales call for fit — the good sales people will know how to what itches they are good at scratching and whether you might have those itches.
- constantly 3y ago
  Fingers crossed the FTC finds and fines you. If it’s big enough maybe you’ll have some empathy for your victims, or at least the calculus will change in society’s favor.
  - csa 3y ago
    > Fingers crossed the FTC finds and fines you. What exactly would they fine me for? I’m not robo-calling, I’m cold calling. Furthermore, all of my leads are internally generated and qualified B2B leads. There is nothing illegal about this. https://blog.close.com/is-cold-calling-legal/ https://blog.close.com/is-cold-calling-legal/ You seem to have a big bone to pick for a domain you don’t understand very well.
    - myself248 3y ago
      If the law is so far divorced from what everyday people see as a scourge, then perhaps it is the law that has a poor understanding of reality. Just because bothering people is legal doesn't mean it's ethical.
      - csa 3y ago
        > what everyday people see as a scourge I think you might be projecting a wee bit too much. I guess you missed the following quote in the article I linked to (emphasis mine): “Only 2% of cold calls convert. But 69% of buyers are willing to take a cold call, and 57% of C-level buyers want sales reps to contact them first.” Most savvy business people are willing to take speculative engagements (within reason) — it’s just +ev to do so. Let me be charitable and say that I think that a lot of tech sales is low quality (e.g., trying to force fit when there isn’t much/any) or downright scams (e.g., the alleged yelp “protection money” gambit), so I can understand that a tech-oriented community may be a bit jaded. That said, low quality sales interactions are not the norm in large swathes of the economy — it’s just as much or more of a waste of time for the sales person as it is for the potential buyer.

ryandrake 3y ago

From your point of view, it's great--there's no downside. A little "Aggregate inefficiency" as you put it. From the point of view of the victims (or leads, as you might describe them), 70% deftly avoided you and 20% were annoyed that you intruded on their lives, albeit briefly. Or put another way, for every new customer you got, you actively annoyed ~7 of them, and confirmed the problem of unsolicited phone calls for a further ~23 of them.