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I wish Apple would make a handheld gaming device and make it work with steam similarly through the proton layer like Valve. I'm sorta hoping by putting this int

by nyjah 3y ago

I wish Apple would make a handheld gaming device and make it work with steam similarly through the proton layer like Valve. I'm sorta hoping by putting this into writing it might bring it into existence.

wilsonnb3 3y ago
Not sure they'd be able to compete with the performance loss from running Windows binaries via the Game Porting Toolkit (their proton like tool) and the x86 to ARM translation. Apple has been able to make a killer game console or handheld for a while but they just don't seem to care. All they really have to do is change the marketing around the Apple TV, put a controller in the box, and start courting developers to port their switch games...
- TheRealSteel 3y ago
  I guess they'd encourage developers to officially port their games to native Apple Silicon, but have emulation as a backup.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  > All they really have to do is change the marketing around the Apple TV, put a controller in the box, and start courting developers to port their switch games... They have done this, albeit half-assed. The AppleTV (and iOS) readily support a bunch of Bluetooth controllers. They tried to get studios to make games for the AppleTV but they mostly just got iPhone/iPad ports. There's a couple big problems with the AppleTV. The first is poor tooling for graphics and audio development. The underlying frameworks are powerful as is the hardware but it's difficult to debug them or access them at a low level. It's hard to just get an accurate accounting of the timing of draw calls and GPU load on iOS and macOS. The tooling for DirectX is way more powerful. The AppleTV hardware is also shit. They've always shipped with old Apple Silicon SoCs. So if you've got a game that screams on the latest iPad or iPhone it runs like shit on the AppleTV or you've got to scale back the visuals. Even when a developer manages to make an awesome game for iOS it ends up sucking on AppleTV. Then there's the tiny amounts of storage. Even the average Nintendo Switch game would find the AppleTV's storage anemic to say nothing of the PS5 or Xbox. Apple has never courted AAA game development. I don't think any of Apple's C-suite appreciates games. They trot out game developers to do slick demos at one of their events (doting on them in the run up) and then go back to largely ignoring them. The various game adjacent technologies/frameworks are almost always bottom-up initiatives from development teams trying to come up with a new shiny thing for the next OS release.
  - skyyler 3y ago
    >Apple has never courted AAA game development Not since Jobs returned, anyways. Before that, Bungie was a darling for Apple and they even made the Pippin, which was a games console.
    - giantrobot 3y ago
      I would not point to the Pippin as an exemplar of AAA game development. It was a locked down Performa with a custom build of System 7. Most of the titles for it were just retooled Mac releases and it didn't really offer any special "game console" special sauce. It was the product of an extremely unfocused and frankly rudderless Apple. But I would agree Bungie was a AAA studio though in spite of Apple rather than because of anything in particular Apple did. They treated Bungie and their games as a thing to provide a demo but never really anything to actively support or encourage.
crazygringo 3y ago
You know, by this point is does seem like Apple could make an M2 chip extra-heavy on the GPU, like they have their Pro/Max/Ultra variants, package it in an Apple TV chassis, ship it with a controller, and have an instant Xbox/PS competitor if they could get gaming companies to target it as a platform for AAA games. I wonder why they don't, but I'm not a gamer. Is there something about GPU performance that still doesn't stack up? Does the violence of many AAA games go against their Disney-clean brand? Are there too many platform exclusives that would hamstring the effort? Is it just not in Apple's DNA? Or is console gaming just not profitable enough at the end of the day?
- giantrobot 3y ago
  As I alluded to in a sibling comment: gaming is not in Apple's DNA. Their executives are just not interested in gaming. That being said, even if they were, Apple likes fat margins on all their hardware. Game consoles are the Gillet model, zero to negative margins on the console with money made on licenses and services. A theoretical AppleTV with an M2 and beefy GPU with a useful amount of storage could never hit their margin goals. Such a box would basically be the high end Mac mini which retails for $1299. There's no way Apple would sell that kit for $399 and try to make up the difference in licenses and services. Even with a huge attach rate there's no way they'd make up the difference.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Even with the hardware (an older A-series would stomp the Switch), Apple just keeps burning bridges with the industry due to the exec problem you mentioned. They do nothing (old OpenGL) or make things worse (unfixed OpenGL bugs), or promise a new focus and then don’t keep following through long-term. The only reason Apple has any credibility in any way with games is the iPhone, and they did basically nothing. They were in the right place with good hardware and made software easy to buy. They didn’t focus on it. (Then they allowed IAPs and destroyed the market for good iPhone games but made everyone rich so ‘woo’) They got in a giant fight with nVidia. They totally pissed office Epic, makers of Unreal (it wasn’t going well before the games store stuff). Took years to allow real controllers and didn’t make one of their own so most people didn’t know BT controllers were an option. Forced AppleTV games to support the Siri touch remote as a controller for years despite it being useless for most games. Take a huge cut of profits on all non-Mac devices. Randomly reject app updates. Don’t have a public roadmap for anything and can change direction on a dime. Everything I’ve heard is they have no faith from the industry. I’m not surprised. Steve Jobs didn’t want the Mac seen as a toy or video games machine but a ‘real computer’ and the attitude hasn’t exactly changed since.
post_break 3y ago
I don’t see them doing anything that skips rent like the AppStore.
belugacat 3y ago
Putting the numbers in perspective is always interesting: The best selling video game handheld of all time, the Nintendo DS (across all its hardware revisions), sold over 150 million units in its lifetime. Apple typically sells this many iPhones in less than three quarters.

by nyjah 3y ago

wilsonnb3 3y ago

Not sure they'd be able to compete with the performance loss from running Windows binaries via the Game Porting Toolkit (their proton like tool) and the x86 to ARM translation. Apple has been able to make a killer game console or handheld for a while but they just don't seem to care. All they really have to do is change the marketing around the Apple TV, put a controller in the box, and start courting developers to port their switch games...

TheRealSteel 3y ago
I guess they'd encourage developers to officially port their games to native Apple Silicon, but have emulation as a backup.
giantrobot 3y ago
> All they really have to do is change the marketing around the Apple TV, put a controller in the box, and start courting developers to port their switch games... They have done this, albeit half-assed. The AppleTV (and iOS) readily support a bunch of Bluetooth controllers. They tried to get studios to make games for the AppleTV but they mostly just got iPhone/iPad ports. There's a couple big problems with the AppleTV. The first is poor tooling for graphics and audio development. The underlying frameworks are powerful as is the hardware but it's difficult to debug them or access them at a low level. It's hard to just get an accurate accounting of the timing of draw calls and GPU load on iOS and macOS. The tooling for DirectX is way more powerful. The AppleTV hardware is also shit. They've always shipped with old Apple Silicon SoCs. So if you've got a game that screams on the latest iPad or iPhone it runs like shit on the AppleTV or you've got to scale back the visuals. Even when a developer manages to make an awesome game for iOS it ends up sucking on AppleTV. Then there's the tiny amounts of storage. Even the average Nintendo Switch game would find the AppleTV's storage anemic to say nothing of the PS5 or Xbox. Apple has never courted AAA game development. I don't think any of Apple's C-suite appreciates games. They trot out game developers to do slick demos at one of their events (doting on them in the run up) and then go back to largely ignoring them. The various game adjacent technologies/frameworks are almost always bottom-up initiatives from development teams trying to come up with a new shiny thing for the next OS release.
- skyyler 3y ago
  >Apple has never courted AAA game development Not since Jobs returned, anyways. Before that, Bungie was a darling for Apple and they even made the Pippin, which was a games console.
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    I would not point to the Pippin as an exemplar of AAA game development. It was a locked down Performa with a custom build of System 7. Most of the titles for it were just retooled Mac releases and it didn't really offer any special "game console" special sauce. It was the product of an extremely unfocused and frankly rudderless Apple. But I would agree Bungie was a AAA studio though in spite of Apple rather than because of anything in particular Apple did. They treated Bungie and their games as a thing to provide a demo but never really anything to actively support or encourage.

crazygringo 3y ago

You know, by this point is does seem like Apple could make an M2 chip extra-heavy on the GPU, like they have their Pro/Max/Ultra variants, package it in an Apple TV chassis, ship it with a controller, and have an instant Xbox/PS competitor if they could get gaming companies to target it as a platform for AAA games. I wonder why they don't, but I'm not a gamer. Is there something about GPU performance that still doesn't stack up? Does the violence of many AAA games go against their Disney-clean brand? Are there too many platform exclusives that would hamstring the effort? Is it just not in Apple's DNA? Or is console gaming just not profitable enough at the end of the day?

giantrobot 3y ago
As I alluded to in a sibling comment: gaming is not in Apple's DNA. Their executives are just not interested in gaming. That being said, even if they were, Apple likes fat margins on all their hardware. Game consoles are the Gillet model, zero to negative margins on the console with money made on licenses and services. A theoretical AppleTV with an M2 and beefy GPU with a useful amount of storage could never hit their margin goals. Such a box would basically be the high end Mac mini which retails for $1299. There's no way Apple would sell that kit for $399 and try to make up the difference in licenses and services. Even with a huge attach rate there's no way they'd make up the difference.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Even with the hardware (an older A-series would stomp the Switch), Apple just keeps burning bridges with the industry due to the exec problem you mentioned. They do nothing (old OpenGL) or make things worse (unfixed OpenGL bugs), or promise a new focus and then don’t keep following through long-term. The only reason Apple has any credibility in any way with games is the iPhone, and they did basically nothing. They were in the right place with good hardware and made software easy to buy. They didn’t focus on it. (Then they allowed IAPs and destroyed the market for good iPhone games but made everyone rich so ‘woo’) They got in a giant fight with nVidia. They totally pissed office Epic, makers of Unreal (it wasn’t going well before the games store stuff). Took years to allow real controllers and didn’t make one of their own so most people didn’t know BT controllers were an option. Forced AppleTV games to support the Siri touch remote as a controller for years despite it being useless for most games. Take a huge cut of profits on all non-Mac devices. Randomly reject app updates. Don’t have a public roadmap for anything and can change direction on a dime. Everything I’ve heard is they have no faith from the industry. I’m not surprised. Steve Jobs didn’t want the Mac seen as a toy or video games machine but a ‘real computer’ and the attitude hasn’t exactly changed since.

post_break 3y ago

I don’t see them doing anything that skips rent like the AppStore.

belugacat 3y ago

Putting the numbers in perspective is always interesting: The best selling video game handheld of all time, the Nintendo DS (across all its hardware revisions), sold over 150 million units in its lifetime. Apple typically sells this many iPhones in less than three quarters.