11 ms·

"Two of the central players ... were under lifetime bans against making telemarketing calls" Wait, why isn't every human under such a ban?

jhallenworld 3y ago
To allow political ads I would guess.
pnpnp 3y ago
If I had to guess, capitalism?
csa 3y ago
> Wait, why isn't every human under such a ban? Because it would kill cold sales calls, which I think have a ton more value than you probably think they do (when ethically done). For reference for a business I previously owned: - Per 100 cold calls based on leads we qualified… - We actually spoke to about 30 people… - Of which about 10 were actually interested… - Of which about 3 became customers. - Customers paid on a monthly basis for an average of well over two years for our service. For loosely qualified cold calls, this was a pretty big success, imho. Yes, we mildly bothered 70 people (unanswered call), and we bothered 20 more with an unwanted sales pitch (usually less than one minute), but we had good conversations with 10 of them. Whether they became a customer or not, I think that we at least helped them understand clearly what their options were in our product market.
- i5heu 3y ago
  Fun fact: Cold calling private individuals is illegal in Germany.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Alupis 3y ago
    There's very little point in having un-enforceable laws.
    - jabradoodle 3y ago
      https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2010/100729FinesColdCalling.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...
      - Alupis 3y ago
        > In the period from August 2009 until April 2010 we received more than 57,000 written complaints about unsolicited sales calls alone... That's just reported complaints. Ya... this law is practically un-enforceable. A couple example cases doesn't mean Germany banned cold calling when apparently thousands and thousands and thousands go un-prosecuted.
        jabradoodle 3y ago
        Having a law doenst mean no one breaks it.
        i5heu 3y ago
        > So far, the Federal Network Agency has terminated eleven administrative offences proceedings involving cold calling with the issue of administrative orders imposing a fine and has imposed fines totalling about EUR 694,000 Also i just don't get cold calls, and know no one else that gets these... it works!
  - MandieD 3y ago
    TIL... despite nearly two decades here! I knew it was illegal for businesses to use contact information you gave them for some other reason to later market to you without your permission (especially after GDPR went into effect), but not that it was also illegal for them to simply sit down with the phone book or an autodialer.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. Ten percent of your interactions were even close to being considered not a nuisance (more like 3 percent were actually not a nuisance, someone listing to an advertisement willingly is still being interrupted and annoyed) Fuck that man, come on. If you are bothering 100 people to POSSIBLY help a couple people possibly find a service that might help them, you are spam.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Cold Calls aren't the problem though. Getting one random call a month or whatever never was an issue in the past. The issue is getting 10 completely silent calls per day, sometimes with an additional "your car warranty is expired" call. That's the issue everyone has a problem with - it's made answering your phone nearly useless.
  - csa 3y ago
    > You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. I think you are missing the big picture. Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive, it’s: - 90 minutes of aggregate inefficiency… - to benefit 7 folks who have a much better understanding of the market for their current and future needs… - and 3 people who are scaling their business for years via delegating something they are not good at to folks who are. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had many many dud 90-minute encounters (much less one minute encounters) that were all worth it for the one encounter that moved the needle. This could be sales leads, training, dates, finding new restaurants… there are many domains for which this is true. Frankly, I think that this is a fairly efficient ratio compared to most value-seeking activities in the world. Edit: Note that the close rate was close to 40% live (versus 10% calls) with a non-significant n, so I think the medium itself was one source of inefficiency. The product was clearly needed by our leads, but trust-building was tougher over the phone.
    - lp0_on_fire 3y ago
      > Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You're not entitled to even a second of my time.
- hanniabu 3y ago
  America, where you can inconvenience an entire nation as long as there's money to be made
  - azinman2 3y ago
    Better than inconvenience due to inefficiencies and stupidity with no money to be made
    - MandieD 3y ago
      Looks like most everyone got a lot of inconvenience due to the inefficiencies due to a bunch of stupid phone calls, with a lot of money being made by a few jerks, largely at the expense of senior citizens who weren't prepared to deal with a rapid shift in the way the world worked.
  - bediger4000 3y ago
    You hit the nail on the head. The US could have stopped robocalls years ago, by enforcing accurate caller ID and maybe policing who got to hook up to the SS7 network, and aggressively enforcing whatever laws could be used against the scammers. But instead, the phone companies probably decided they could make extra cash off the robocallers, not realizing they were killing the golden goose. I'm also 100% certain that both phone companies and members of Congress received bribes i mean sizeable campaign contributions and cushy think tank jobs over this. So maybe 50-100 people made money, and absolutely ruined a working communication system. I hope it was worth inconveniencing the entire US population to make a little money, you shameless wieners.
- nonameiguess 3y ago
  The problem with this point of view that all businesses seem to have is you're not the only ones doing this. Those same 90 people you're providing negative value and nuisance to are getting it from hundreds of businesses a day, gradually driving the signal to noise ratio of all communications channels down to zero. It's entirely possible one of the hundreds of real estate investment companies calling me every day trying to buy one of my houses was going to make a terrific offer that would have provided me with value. But I'll never know, because if I answered the phone and actually talked to them, I'd have to answer all of these calls, and doing that would leave me with no time to do anything at all except answer phone calls and listen to sales pitches all day every day.
  - csa 3y ago
    > Those same 90 people you're providing negative value and nuisance to are getting it from hundreds of businesses a day, gradually driving the signal to noise ratio of all communications channels down to zero It’s more likely that they find a good match with about 2% of them, and those 2% help grow their business. I really get the sense that the people complaining the most about cold calling (different than robo-calling) are folks who: - have little or no business experience - have never had a good sales experience - work in tech where the default sales experience sucks Successful business people know what their hair-on-fire problems are, and they are willing to take on speculative engagements that may help them solve those problems. This is not rocket science.
- cwkoss 3y ago
  Annoying 90 people to make a marginal profit from 3 seems bad for society, and I would fully support a ban.
  - csa 3y ago
    > Annoying 90 people to make a marginal profit from 3 seems bad for society, and I would fully support a ban. I mean, that’s easy to say in a glib way on a site like HN, but are factoring in the full consequences of the knock-on effects of a high-friction economy? Oh, ads are annoying? Ok, everything that is ad supported ceases to exist. Little or no TV, no social media (ok, this sort of seems like a win), no newspapers, no magazines, no radio, much smaller movie scene (since they can’t advertise), etc. I’m all for having healthy boundaries and being able to set healthy boundaries, but your solution seems like overkill. Fwiw, I set my phone on do not disturb for numbers not in my address book. That’s an easy way to not be bothered if that’s your jam (I just check messages if/when I want to).
    - cwkoss 3y ago
      I would also happily tax advertisements extremely aggressively to the point that most advertisements cease to exist.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - joseda-hg 3y ago
      It makes sense that you feel a more positive about it than the average person, but you should be aware that the other 90% that are "annoyed" also have an opinion with which you will never interact I wouldn't place cold calling on the same level as regular ads, ostensibly I care for whatever I get from the place showing the ads, which might or might not be the case on cold calling (I get that you said that you only called relevant people, but based on the general sentiment, I think we can reasonably say that you're an outlier, and even then ~10% cared enough to answer) As someone that receives plenty of calls from numbers not on their contact list, it feels wrong that I have to actively distrust, instead of dealing with the problem from the source , some countries (Like Germany) do ban cold calling, which seems the sane option to me, but I personally don't think America cares enough about privacy to even consider it
- myself248 3y ago
  The content I would like to put in this comment is vastly, egregiously, horrifyingly inappropriate according to HN's policy. So instead I will just say that I dislike you very much and I hope you have an awful, poopy day. You, and those like you, are the reason we can't have nice things.
  - csa 3y ago
    > So instead I will just say that I dislike you very much and I hope you have an awful, poopy day. > You, and those like you, are the reason we can't have nice things. Cheers. I love you, too. I will be sure to remember your kind words when my customers thank me for doing such a good job (which is typical and often).

jhallenworld 3y ago

To allow political ads I would guess.

pnpnp 3y ago

If I had to guess, capitalism?

csa 3y ago

> Wait, why isn't every human under such a ban? Because it would kill cold sales calls, which I think have a ton more value than you probably think they do (when ethically done). For reference for a business I previously owned: - Per 100 cold calls based on leads we qualified… - We actually spoke to about 30 people… - Of which about 10 were actually interested… - Of which about 3 became customers. - Customers paid on a monthly basis for an average of well over two years for our service. For loosely qualified cold calls, this was a pretty big success, imho. Yes, we mildly bothered 70 people (unanswered call), and we bothered 20 more with an unwanted sales pitch (usually less than one minute), but we had good conversations with 10 of them. Whether they became a customer or not, I think that we at least helped them understand clearly what their options were in our product market.

i5heu 3y ago
Fun fact: Cold calling private individuals is illegal in Germany.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Alupis 3y ago
  There's very little point in having un-enforceable laws.
  - jabradoodle 3y ago
    https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2010/100729FinesColdCalling.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > In the period from August 2009 until April 2010 we received more than 57,000 written complaints about unsolicited sales calls alone... That's just reported complaints. Ya... this law is practically un-enforceable. A couple example cases doesn't mean Germany banned cold calling when apparently thousands and thousands and thousands go un-prosecuted.
      - jabradoodle 3y ago
        Having a law doenst mean no one breaks it.
      - i5heu 3y ago
        > So far, the Federal Network Agency has terminated eleven administrative offences proceedings involving cold calling with the issue of administrative orders imposing a fine and has imposed fines totalling about EUR 694,000 Also i just don't get cold calls, and know no one else that gets these... it works!
- MandieD 3y ago
  TIL... despite nearly two decades here! I knew it was illegal for businesses to use contact information you gave them for some other reason to later market to you without your permission (especially after GDPR went into effect), but not that it was also illegal for them to simply sit down with the phone book or an autodialer.
mrguyorama 3y ago
You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. Ten percent of your interactions were even close to being considered not a nuisance (more like 3 percent were actually not a nuisance, someone listing to an advertisement willingly is still being interrupted and annoyed) Fuck that man, come on. If you are bothering 100 people to POSSIBLY help a couple people possibly find a service that might help them, you are spam.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Cold Calls aren't the problem though. Getting one random call a month or whatever never was an issue in the past. The issue is getting 10 completely silent calls per day, sometimes with an additional "your car warranty is expired" call. That's the issue everyone has a problem with - it's made answering your phone nearly useless.
- csa 3y ago
  > You have provided a great example of how worthless cold calling is to society. I think you are missing the big picture. Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive, it’s: - 90 minutes of aggregate inefficiency… - to benefit 7 folks who have a much better understanding of the market for their current and future needs… - and 3 people who are scaling their business for years via delegating something they are not good at to folks who are. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had many many dud 90-minute encounters (much less one minute encounters) that were all worth it for the one encounter that moved the needle. This could be sales leads, training, dates, finding new restaurants… there are many domains for which this is true. Frankly, I think that this is a fairly efficient ratio compared to most value-seeking activities in the world. Edit: Note that the close rate was close to 40% live (versus 10% calls) with a non-significant n, so I think the medium itself was one source of inefficiency. The product was clearly needed by our leads, but trust-building was tougher over the phone.
  - lp0_on_fire 3y ago
    > Assuming that we waste 1 minute of time for 90 people, and everything else is productive Most people aren't interested in being tricked into opening their wallet, sorry. If I want your services, I'll seek them out. You're not entitled to even a second of my time.
hanniabu 3y ago
America, where you can inconvenience an entire nation as long as there's money to be made
- azinman2 3y ago
  Better than inconvenience due to inefficiencies and stupidity with no money to be made
  - MandieD 3y ago
    Looks like most everyone got a lot of inconvenience due to the inefficiencies due to a bunch of stupid phone calls, with a lot of money being made by a few jerks, largely at the expense of senior citizens who weren't prepared to deal with a rapid shift in the way the world worked.
- bediger4000 3y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. The US could have stopped robocalls years ago, by enforcing accurate caller ID and maybe policing who got to hook up to the SS7 network, and aggressively enforcing whatever laws could be used against the scammers. But instead, the phone companies probably decided they could make extra cash off the robocallers, not realizing they were killing the golden goose. I'm also 100% certain that both phone companies and members of Congress received bribes i mean sizeable campaign contributions and cushy think tank jobs over this. So maybe 50-100 people made money, and absolutely ruined a working communication system. I hope it was worth inconveniencing the entire US population to make a little money, you shameless wieners.
nonameiguess 3y ago
The problem with this point of view that all businesses seem to have is you're not the only ones doing this. Those same 90 people you're providing negative value and nuisance to are getting it from hundreds of businesses a day, gradually driving the signal to noise ratio of all communications channels down to zero. It's entirely possible one of the hundreds of real estate investment companies calling me every day trying to buy one of my houses was going to make a terrific offer that would have provided me with value. But I'll never know, because if I answered the phone and actually talked to them, I'd have to answer all of these calls, and doing that would leave me with no time to do anything at all except answer phone calls and listen to sales pitches all day every day.
- csa 3y ago
  > Those same 90 people you're providing negative value and nuisance to are getting it from hundreds of businesses a day, gradually driving the signal to noise ratio of all communications channels down to zero It’s more likely that they find a good match with about 2% of them, and those 2% help grow their business. I really get the sense that the people complaining the most about cold calling (different than robo-calling) are folks who: - have little or no business experience - have never had a good sales experience - work in tech where the default sales experience sucks Successful business people know what their hair-on-fire problems are, and they are willing to take on speculative engagements that may help them solve those problems. This is not rocket science.
cwkoss 3y ago
Annoying 90 people to make a marginal profit from 3 seems bad for society, and I would fully support a ban.
- csa 3y ago
  > Annoying 90 people to make a marginal profit from 3 seems bad for society, and I would fully support a ban. I mean, that’s easy to say in a glib way on a site like HN, but are factoring in the full consequences of the knock-on effects of a high-friction economy? Oh, ads are annoying? Ok, everything that is ad supported ceases to exist. Little or no TV, no social media (ok, this sort of seems like a win), no newspapers, no magazines, no radio, much smaller movie scene (since they can’t advertise), etc. I’m all for having healthy boundaries and being able to set healthy boundaries, but your solution seems like overkill. Fwiw, I set my phone on do not disturb for numbers not in my address book. That’s an easy way to not be bothered if that’s your jam (I just check messages if/when I want to).
  - cwkoss 3y ago
    I would also happily tax advertisements extremely aggressively to the point that most advertisements cease to exist.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - joseda-hg 3y ago
    It makes sense that you feel a more positive about it than the average person, but you should be aware that the other 90% that are "annoyed" also have an opinion with which you will never interact I wouldn't place cold calling on the same level as regular ads, ostensibly I care for whatever I get from the place showing the ads, which might or might not be the case on cold calling (I get that you said that you only called relevant people, but based on the general sentiment, I think we can reasonably say that you're an outlier, and even then ~10% cared enough to answer) As someone that receives plenty of calls from numbers not on their contact list, it feels wrong that I have to actively distrust, instead of dealing with the problem from the source , some countries (Like Germany) do ban cold calling, which seems the sane option to me, but I personally don't think America cares enough about privacy to even consider it
myself248 3y ago
The content I would like to put in this comment is vastly, egregiously, horrifyingly inappropriate according to HN's policy. So instead I will just say that I dislike you very much and I hope you have an awful, poopy day. You, and those like you, are the reason we can't have nice things.
- csa 3y ago
  > So instead I will just say that I dislike you very much and I hope you have an awful, poopy day. > You, and those like you, are the reason we can't have nice things. Cheers. I love you, too. I will be sure to remember your kind words when my customers thank me for doing such a good job (which is typical and often).