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Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an inf

• jackmott42 3y ago
  Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.
  • MBCook 3y ago
    There are two tests you can run for the EPA. What I’ve heard is one favors EVs more and only Tesla uses those numbers for their EVs. I agree the test needs a redesign. No one drives 55, and speed has a big impact on EVs due to wind resistance.
    • CameronNemo 3y ago
      Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.
      • yurishimo 3y ago
        Why do people need to drive slow? Sometimes you gotta get somewhere. If they are willing to pay the premium to driver faster and follow the law while doing so, what’s the harm?
        • CameronNemo 3y ago
          They are not willing to pay the premium, though. Tell me when highways, bridges, and streets are not paid by gas taxes -- you won't. Tell me when I can trade money for reliably sequestered CO2 -- you can't. edit: I didn't downvote them btw
          • yurishimo 3y ago
            So you downvote me because you are refusing to engage in the “we live in a society” meme? We’ve decided collectively how to fund infrastructure and engage in climate action as a society. If you don’t like it, feel free to lobby your neighbors and representatives to change the law.
            • deleted 3y ago
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        • sdfignaionio 3y ago
          I think you know why: efficiency and safety. Driving fast greatly increases fuel consumption and wear on tires. It makes crashes more likely and more serious. Why do people need to drive fast? The gains are minimal even if you stay exclusively on a lightly-trafficked freeway. In more realistic scenarios, the gains are almost nothing. You'll just be the first one to the light or traffic jam.
        • patmorgan23 3y ago
          Air resistant. For most vehicles the sweet spot for efficiency is around 45-50 miles an hour. If you go faster than that you start spending more energy fighting wind resistance than going faster
      • deleted 3y ago
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      • CamperBob2 3y ago
        You can. Just do it in the right lane, please.
        • gnicholas 3y ago
          Seems OK at first glance, but if you're in a 65 then the trucks (in the right lane) will want to go 65+. Going 55 in the right lane means they all need to pass you, which causes a domino effect onto the other lanes of traffic. If you're on a 4-lane highway (2 in each direction), going 55 means that trucks that pass you will have to go in the fast lane. If there aren't a lot of trucks around, then going 55 in the right lane has less of an impact on other drivers. But if there are many trucks (which there usually are, IME), then going 10 MPH under the limit will cause a lot of headaches for all the other drivers around you.
          • MBCook 3y ago
            And that’s 65. I’ve been in places where the speed limit is 70 but people usually go 75-80. That’s 20-25mph faster than you. At that point you’re practically impeding traffic, and having a big truck pass you is terrifying. Just because you can legally drive 55 or maybe even less doesn’t make it safe.
            • jcranmer 3y ago
              > Just because you can legally drive 55 or maybe even less doesn’t make it safe. Generally, you actually can't legally drive that much slower than prevailing speed.
              • gnicholas 3y ago
                I remember seeing minimum speed limit signs in Iowa. I was told this was to keep tractors off the highways. Where these signs aren’t present, I think you’d have to be going more than 10 under the maximum limit to get a ticket.
  • sdfignaionio 3y ago
    There are two important things you're missing: 1. Tesla's estimates are not "highly accurate". They are alleged to use a deliberately optimistic estimate when the battery is near full, then gradually switch to a more realistic estimate as the battery drains. In particular they are alleged to incorrectly account for the weather. This means the car will always display nearly the advertised number at full charge (and on a test drive). Supposedly Tesla used to use a more accurate estimate but then got orders from on high to fudge the numbers. 2. For other car manufacturers, the range estimates are not terribly inflated. The report from Edmunds claim that most EV models meet or exceed their range estimates, and cars that miss their estimates don't miss by anywhere near as much as Teslas.
    • lsaferite 3y ago
      I know we are talking about EVs here, but my ICE has an estimated range display and _it_ isn't super accurate _and_ it doesn't take potential weather (or other factors like elevation) into account either. Why would you expect it to factor in _potential_ weather when giving a range estimate?
      • maxerickson 3y ago
        It's not the potential weather, the one mode for the range estimator apparently isn't taking the current ambient conditions into account. So it's not factoring in the likely load from the heat or AC when it's cold or hot and they need to run to keep the vehicle comfortable.
      • sdfignaionio 3y ago
        Allegedly, 1. Other companies have more accurate estimates than Tesla. 2. Tesla uses a different and more accurate algorithm when charge is low. 3. Tesla's estimates used to be more accurate. It doesn't make sense to argue the problem is intractable when it has supposedly been solved by many companies, including Tesla itself. >Why would you expect it to factor in _potential_ weather when giving a range estimate? I wouldn't expect that. The cars have thermometers.
    • brandonagr2 3y ago
  • TheRealSteel 3y ago
    How can you say nobody cares about city range? That's all I care about.
    • nsenifty 3y ago
      Because people don't tend to drive non-stop for hundreds of miles at cities (except perhaps taxis)? You also always have a charger nearby.
      • xboxnolifes 3y ago
        But the range is calculated based on the energy efficiency, and all drivers (should) care about that number, since that's the cost.
        • patmorgan23 3y ago
          Range != Efficiency. Electric motors are all pretty efficient. It has more to do with how big a battery they were able to squeeze into the thing. This is different from ICE vehicles where fuel efficiency is more variable and does affect range more.
    • sdfignaionio 3y ago
      People don't generally drive 200 miles in the city in one stretch.
• MBCook 3y ago
  Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a fair question. Porsche reportedly tends to outperform its EPA number significantly. They chose to lower it (a choice automakers have) to provide a more realistic picture given their customers seem more likely to use the performance at the cost of raw range.
  • jncfhnb 3y ago
    I mean… no, it’s not fraud. I feel like your example uses numbers that are so aggressive one has suspect that they are not real. I don’t have a stake in this or knowledge beyond a quick Google but the EPA test does not look obviously flawed. The more pertinent question to me would be whether the Tesla range can genuinely achieve those EPA numbers with a typical car.
    • freerobby 3y ago
      I'm able to beat rated range pretty easily on my '15 Model S on local roads. It's tough once I get on highways and exceed 65MPH. EPA is 290 Wh/mi. I typically get 330-350 on highways, going about 75 MPH, without the OEM low rolling resistance tires, and with roof bars and a bike rack on top (but no bike).
  • mensetmanusman 3y ago
    That’s on the regulators to define a metric, lest EVs compete on made up numbers. EVs are so new of course that organizations are still figuring this out globally.
    • mrguyorama 3y ago
      But Tesla is using that metric in a place most normally don't, and they are doing that purposely as elsewhere they use an in house estimation like everyone else. No gasoline car uses the EPA fuel economy to do it's range estimation, EVEN WHEN IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR THEM TO DO SO, because it's wrong enough often enough to make a range estimation using it lose significant value. Tesla has made a choice to stray from normal industry practice. If they have done so in an attempt to sway customers with the incorrect numbers, that should be considered fraud. That's pretty damn difficult to prove as a crime, but not hard to make likely in a civil case.
• rubyn00bie 3y ago
  This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article: > The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging false advertising, the lawsuit said that range estimates provided by Tesla vehicles during car trips fail to account for temperature and other factors that reduce range. I’ve heard people on HN talk about this saying there are two separate values the car shows you and one is wildly and consistently wrong. The one that’s wrong, by the sounds of it aligns with their marketing materials. I won’t buy a Tesla, but to me, their advantage is range. Right now their only competitors in range are more expensive (though quite a bit nicer imho). I imagine if I had bought a Tesla and the range wasn’t as good as it should be, I would be quite pissed…
  • bdamm 3y ago
    Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range. The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that people don't understand basic physics?
    • mrguyorama 3y ago
      Every single other car ever made with a range estimation functionality uses past data to estimate your range. For like a decade Toyota had this on nearly every vehicle despite none of them having GPS integration, and nearly all of them were accurate enough to rely on. You are bending over backwards to come up with an excuse for Tesla, when they quite clearly made a choice to either be lazy or misleading. When my gasoline car says "You have 12 miles left", I KNOW I can drive 12 miles minimum, as long as it isn't at wide open throttle. The car has mountains of data at it's disposal, but in reality this technique has been used ever since a car could figure out how much gas was flowing into the injectors. The assumption is that how you have driven for the past ten minutes is a reliable indicator for how you will drive over the next ten minutes, and for most ten minute periods that is an accurate assumption.
• deleted 3y ago
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• jtbayly 3y ago
  My memory from the first article I saw on this is that Tesla convinced the EPA to not use the EPA's measurement, and instead to trust Tesla's "measurement."
• DannyBee 3y ago
  The lawsuit claims this is false, and that for the first 50% of the range, they use a rosy algorithm, then a more realistic one. At least, at some point. I'll try to get the filing and paste from it, give me a few. It's "Porter et al v. Tesla, Inc.", in case someone beats me to it.
• sschueller 3y ago
  Maybe we should also ask our selves, why is Tesla's EPA range so high in comparison to all others? I recall reading over and over in car reviews how the other EVs had low EPA estimates and during tests got an avarage above the EPA range. Why is that?