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Since when has going to the office been a matter of forcing people? Until covid hit (just two years ago?) almost everyone did. So how did this turn into forcing

Since when has going to the office been a matter of forcing people? Until covid hit (just two years ago?) almost everyone did. So how did this turn into forcing anyone to do anything different? EDIT: To be clear. I mean "forcing people to do anything different". Going into the office was normal for almost everyone.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Since when has going to the office been a matter of forcing people? Since always? Until Covid, there was no choice. People did it because they had to. Covid just reminded people that there is another way to live and how much quality of life they're actually sacrificing for their job.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Yes, and we only pay attention to studies that signal what we want - such as working from home improved productivity. It doesn't matter how many counter-examples there are, or how many business leaders say they've seen declines. No, those folks are totally wrong because we want remote work.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't make any arguments about productivity in general either way because I don't have any data to base them on. That said, there's no question that I personally am much more productive at home vs in the office. Offices seem designed to interfere with productivity. But, all that said, why does it matter either way? I am a human being. I do not exist to ensure that my employer is operating with the greatest productivity possible.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > I am a human being. I do not exist to ensure that my employer is operating with the greatest productivity possible. You literally do if you are employed by someone. You expect money from them in exchange for productive work. You are free to start your own business if you want to be however-productive you feel like that day. For head-down productivity, sure, you can be better at home. But that's not the entire picture, is it? In-person collaboration is always better than remote messaging/video calling. It just is, and probably always will be. It's very disingenuous to pretend remote collaboration is anywhere near as effective as in-person collaboration.
      - piva00 3y ago
        > You literally do if you are employed by someone. You expect money from them in exchange for productive work. You are free to start your own business if you want to be however-productive you feel like that day. No. You're paid to deliver productive work, not to ensure you're working on the greatest productivity possible at all times. That's a fool's errand, eventually bringing you guilt when you can't perform at that level due to life's twists and turns, turning into a burnout when you aren't able to keep your productivity at 100% but keep trying (and failing). If you are employed by someone there's an expectation of doing your job, delivering value, not of chasing the greatest productivity possible. You are a person, not a fucking machine. Balance is needed to be constantly productive, to be able to be creative. > In-person collaboration is always better than remote messaging/video calling. It just is, and probably always will be. > It's very disingenuous to pretend remote collaboration is anywhere near as effective as in-person collaboration. It is very myopic to state platitudes without any data to support your main argument, based on some "it just is". It might be for you and your colleagues, it might not be that important for a lot of people/processes that adapted to not be in-person. Stop trying to force others to live how you think people should live, you do you, let others decide what's best for them.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        > You're paid to deliver productive work, not to ensure you're working on the greatest productivity possible at all times. Extremes edges of the space of possibility aren't that interesting, but if you want greater compensation, you probably do want to find ways to deliver greater value for your company (and make sure they know about it). It's very hard for a company to continue paying out greater compensation to employees than the value delivered by those employees.
rodgerd 3y ago
Until the Industrial Revolution people worked where they lived. Your horizon for "always" is myopic.
- assimpleaspossi 3y ago
  At least I'm not going back to before the Industrial Revolution for examples.
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    I'm sorry that knowledge offends you.
    - assimpleaspossi 3y ago
      Your example is not relative to the points being made about current work. So irrelevant and unnecessary commentary.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Since when has going to the office been a matter of forcing people? Since always? Until Covid, there was no choice. People did it because they had to. Covid just reminded people that there is another way to live and how much quality of life they're actually sacrificing for their job.

Alupis 3y ago
Yes, and we only pay attention to studies that signal what we want - such as working from home improved productivity. It doesn't matter how many counter-examples there are, or how many business leaders say they've seen declines. No, those folks are totally wrong because we want remote work.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't make any arguments about productivity in general either way because I don't have any data to base them on. That said, there's no question that I personally am much more productive at home vs in the office. Offices seem designed to interfere with productivity. But, all that said, why does it matter either way? I am a human being. I do not exist to ensure that my employer is operating with the greatest productivity possible.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > I am a human being. I do not exist to ensure that my employer is operating with the greatest productivity possible. You literally do if you are employed by someone. You expect money from them in exchange for productive work. You are free to start your own business if you want to be however-productive you feel like that day. For head-down productivity, sure, you can be better at home. But that's not the entire picture, is it? In-person collaboration is always better than remote messaging/video calling. It just is, and probably always will be. It's very disingenuous to pretend remote collaboration is anywhere near as effective as in-person collaboration.
    - piva00 3y ago
      > You literally do if you are employed by someone. You expect money from them in exchange for productive work. You are free to start your own business if you want to be however-productive you feel like that day. No. You're paid to deliver productive work, not to ensure you're working on the greatest productivity possible at all times. That's a fool's errand, eventually bringing you guilt when you can't perform at that level due to life's twists and turns, turning into a burnout when you aren't able to keep your productivity at 100% but keep trying (and failing). If you are employed by someone there's an expectation of doing your job, delivering value, not of chasing the greatest productivity possible. You are a person, not a fucking machine. Balance is needed to be constantly productive, to be able to be creative. > In-person collaboration is always better than remote messaging/video calling. It just is, and probably always will be. > It's very disingenuous to pretend remote collaboration is anywhere near as effective as in-person collaboration. It is very myopic to state platitudes without any data to support your main argument, based on some "it just is". It might be for you and your colleagues, it might not be that important for a lot of people/processes that adapted to not be in-person. Stop trying to force others to live how you think people should live, you do you, let others decide what's best for them.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        > You're paid to deliver productive work, not to ensure you're working on the greatest productivity possible at all times. Extremes edges of the space of possibility aren't that interesting, but if you want greater compensation, you probably do want to find ways to deliver greater value for your company (and make sure they know about it). It's very hard for a company to continue paying out greater compensation to employees than the value delivered by those employees.

rodgerd 3y ago

Until the Industrial Revolution people worked where they lived. Your horizon for "always" is myopic.

assimpleaspossi 3y ago
At least I'm not going back to before the Industrial Revolution for examples.
- rodgerd 3y ago
  I'm sorry that knowledge offends you.
  - assimpleaspossi 3y ago
    Your example is not relative to the points being made about current work. So irrelevant and unnecessary commentary.