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I used to hate on Macs until I was given one by my employer. Then I realized that despite how awful macOS is, the laptop itself is completely unrivalled. There

I used to hate on Macs until I was given one by my employer. Then I realized that despite how awful macOS is, the laptop itself is completely unrivalled. There is no Lenovo/xps/framework/tuxbook/tongfang/clevo/whatever that comes close to the overall package of a MacBook. It has the stiffest body, the quietest fans, the biggest battery, the best screen and trackpad, etc. Even worse is the fact that a framework 16 is more than an M2 pro with an education discount. And now, the biggest flaw of a MacBook (macos) is fixed.

totallywrong 3y ago
Still rocking a 2015 MBP with Fedora here. Screen, body, keyboard, and trackpad are so good. This news make me consider buying Apple silicon, which I'd never do if I had to use MacOS.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  Does the trackpad function mac-like? Is it still overall better than a Lenovo, for example, or does the software bring it down?
  - totallywrong 3y ago
    It's better than a Lenovo (I've used many) because the trackpad itself is better, the software doesn't have an impact. It's just the usual synaptics driver so you could configure it the way you like.
mdasen 3y ago
Part of it is that Apple has the margins that they can spend a little more on parts. They know they don't have to compete on price as much as PCs do. People aren't going to ditch the Mac over $25 or $50. However, people do regularly compare prices on PC laptops looking to save small amounts of money. That means that Apple can spend a little more designing and ordering a fan that's quieter with a better design and more premium parts. Also, because there are so many PC laptops, it's really hard to get a good review of a PC laptop. There are so many configurations and PC makers often make small (but meaningful) changes to designs during a product's lifecycle. All of a sudden, the one you bought has a less bright display or the cooling system isn't as good or whatever. It makes it hard to reward companies for creating good products. There are premium PC laptops, but they still suffer from some of these decisions and they often cost about the same. I've looked for alternatives to the Mac, but at this point I've stopped. I'm sick of doing research on junk to try and save a few bucks, I'm sick of trackpads that are unusable, and with the new M-series processors I simply never want to go back to a high-wattage processor. I actually like macOS, but I'm really glad happy to see Linux advancing on Apple hardware. The Asahi Linux developers are amazing and I love reading their write-ups.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  >Part of it is that Apple has the margins that they can spend a little more on parts. This part is duplicated by the business or professional branded products of Dell/HP/Lenovo/etc. I think the part that cannot be duplicated (without very significant time and money) is the tight integration between software and hardware. Even if the other companies spend a little more for the premium components, they are not able to squeeze out the same performance.
  - CalChris 3y ago
    However, Dell et al should absolutely make sure the major distros install on their machines. They could have had a customer. Never again.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Dell/HP/Lenovo competes for price in Windows/Linux laptop market, even for professional lines. There's no competition on macOS laptop market.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      I would have thought professionals are not cheaping out on a few hundred dollars for premium components, a negligible fraction of the income earned from the machine.
- kaba0 3y ago
  There are no ends to shitty, luxuriously priced laptops that are nowhere near the quality of any M-series laptop. Though I did hear good news about last generation intel processors, hopefully some competition will emerge - we can only win from thatz
andrekandre 3y ago
> how awful macOS is just curious, but what parts are awful? customization? or just generally bugs?
- tristan957 3y ago
  No window snapping.
  - aidos 3y ago
    Is…that it? There are apps that let you do that. If you were feeling sadistic you could write some AppleScript to do it for you.
    - howinteresting 3y ago
      Ah yes, then you download an app for that. And that app has its own updater. Then you realize you want your mouse and trackpad to scroll in reverse directions. So you download an app for that, which comes with its own updater. And then you want a flat acceleration profile for your mouse, and you download an app for that. That, too, comes with its own updater. Next, you realize that the Mac app-based cmd-tab sucks and you'd much rather have Windows-like behavior. So you download an app for that, which also comes with its own updater. (Yes, yes, I know the arguments Apple users bring out, it's always been done this way on Mac etc etc. Still really bad.) Then you get a taste of auto-tiling on Linux and spend a couple hours setting up yabai and skhd (thankfully updated via homebrew), before realizing that you'll need to turn off SIP [1] for a semi-usable experience. Then you do go and turn off SIP, and you realize that your iOS apps no longer work because macOS has DRM built into its hardware that detects if you've turned off SIP. And then, one of those apps prompts you for an update, and in doing so it steals your keyboard focus while you're typing. And you say "is this what I spent $2500 to experience", and cry. [1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai#requirements-and-caveats https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai#requirements-and-caveat...
      - Tao3300 3y ago
        What's an "update"? Don't you mean a helper? I come back from lunch and my MacBook sounds like a jet turbine and is nearly on fire. Something needs a whole CPU just to show me a freaking dialog.
binkHN 3y ago
> It has ... the quietest fans... Part of this is related to having one of the most power efficient CPUs.
- favadi 3y ago
  Even the fanless configuration is still fast enough for most use cases.
torstenvl 3y ago
I don't understand how people hate macOS. There are some frustrations (e.g., rapid deprecation of things like GC'd Obj-C or 32-bit apps, code signing and notarization) but they pale in comparison to other platforms (glibc compatibility, $500+ code signing certs for Windows/Android, etc.)
- drawnwren 3y ago
  The os being compared to here is linux. I fully understand that most devs don’t want to spend significant time customizing their OS to meet their workflow needs, but once you have a linux distro with a custom window manager —- I don’t see how you could reasonably claim the macos experience is comparable.
  - NayamAmarshe 3y ago
    Nothing could convince me to drop PaperWM.
    - no_carrier 3y ago
      Same with Material Shell for me. I can no longer live without it.
  - st3fan 3y ago
    It is not comparable. But which one is “better” is completely subjective.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Has more to do with privacy in my opinion: https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-now/ https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-n... The fact that you can no longer modify the boot volume and disable invasive services is the clincher.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    You miss the forest for the trees — fedora also has a version with immutable roots, it is a feature, and is absolutely not meant as anti-privacy, it is there for proper rollbacks and imo it is absolutely superior (with NixOS’s model).
bodge5000 3y ago
The fatal flaw with its hardware, for me, is the lack of upgradability. I brought the lowest spec M1 air ~6 months ago, these are pricey machines and I had no idea whether I'd like the hardware/software, so wanted to go easy. Turns out, I really like it, but 8gb ram and 256gb ssd isn't enough. In the world of most laptops, this upgrade would cost me maybe £150. For Mac, this upgrade costs me £3,500 (for half as much storage as well), because I'd need to buy a whole new machine.
- walthamstow 3y ago
  Where did you get those numbers? By my reckoning the upgrade would cost you net about £700 brand new and the upgraded machine could last the rest of the decade. Buy the model I have, the 16gb 512gb M1 Air at £1400 new (or ~£1100 new-ish on eBay). Keep both for a few weeks, transfer your stuff over, then sell your 8gb 256gb M1 Air for ~£700.
  - bodge5000 3y ago
    The numbers for the standard upgrade were from a quick search on amazon (2TB NVME = £100, 32gb DDR4 = £50), and for the MacBook was just the cheapest I could find for the closest specs (£3,500 would actually only get me 1TB storage, that's just the most apple has for a laptop it seems). 1TB would be the minimum for me, especially spending that kind of money. Also I doubt I'd get £700 for my MBA, seeing as that's how much I brought it for (refurbished from Apple). When I was buying it originally, the prices on eBay were more along the lines of £600. Even still, I don't factor in the money I'd get back from selling my previous machine
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Why wouldn’t you factor in the money you get for selling the current one? It is not an upgrade otherwise.
      - bodge5000 3y ago
        Its not an upgrade either way if you're buying a whole new machine. As for my reasons, there's a few. First of all, particularly on higher priced items, a lot of the trouble with the price comes to having the full amount in the first place. I can't walk into an Apple Store £700 short but tell them "don't worry, I'll have the rest later". Aside from that, actually selling the thing is no guarantee, especially not for £700. I remember going to buy a laptop on eBay over 3 years ago and I still see it up there now. It might not be as in demand as the MacBook would be, but the point holds. Even if it does sell, the question then is how long it takes before it does. Based on that, I assume if I can only afford something if I sell something else, I can't actually afford it. There's just too many factors involved. If I can afford the thing and I sell the old thing after, great, that's a nice bonus.

totallywrong 3y ago

Still rocking a 2015 MBP with Fedora here. Screen, body, keyboard, and trackpad are so good. This news make me consider buying Apple silicon, which I'd never do if I had to use MacOS.

unethical_ban 3y ago
Does the trackpad function mac-like? Is it still overall better than a Lenovo, for example, or does the software bring it down?
- totallywrong 3y ago
  It's better than a Lenovo (I've used many) because the trackpad itself is better, the software doesn't have an impact. It's just the usual synaptics driver so you could configure it the way you like.

mdasen 3y ago

Part of it is that Apple has the margins that they can spend a little more on parts. They know they don't have to compete on price as much as PCs do. People aren't going to ditch the Mac over $25 or $50. However, people do regularly compare prices on PC laptops looking to save small amounts of money. That means that Apple can spend a little more designing and ordering a fan that's quieter with a better design and more premium parts. Also, because there are so many PC laptops, it's really hard to get a good review of a PC laptop. There are so many configurations and PC makers often make small (but meaningful) changes to designs during a product's lifecycle. All of a sudden, the one you bought has a less bright display or the cooling system isn't as good or whatever. It makes it hard to reward companies for creating good products. There are premium PC laptops, but they still suffer from some of these decisions and they often cost about the same. I've looked for alternatives to the Mac, but at this point I've stopped. I'm sick of doing research on junk to try and save a few bucks, I'm sick of trackpads that are unusable, and with the new M-series processors I simply never want to go back to a high-wattage processor. I actually like macOS, but I'm really glad happy to see Linux advancing on Apple hardware. The Asahi Linux developers are amazing and I love reading their write-ups.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
>Part of it is that Apple has the margins that they can spend a little more on parts. This part is duplicated by the business or professional branded products of Dell/HP/Lenovo/etc. I think the part that cannot be duplicated (without very significant time and money) is the tight integration between software and hardware. Even if the other companies spend a little more for the premium components, they are not able to squeeze out the same performance.
- CalChris 3y ago
  However, Dell et al should absolutely make sure the major distros install on their machines. They could have had a customer. Never again.
- fomine3 3y ago
  Dell/HP/Lenovo competes for price in Windows/Linux laptop market, even for professional lines. There's no competition on macOS laptop market.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    I would have thought professionals are not cheaping out on a few hundred dollars for premium components, a negligible fraction of the income earned from the machine.
kaba0 3y ago
There are no ends to shitty, luxuriously priced laptops that are nowhere near the quality of any M-series laptop. Though I did hear good news about last generation intel processors, hopefully some competition will emerge - we can only win from thatz

andrekandre 3y ago

> how awful macOS is just curious, but what parts are awful? customization? or just generally bugs?

tristan957 3y ago
No window snapping.
- aidos 3y ago
  Is…that it? There are apps that let you do that. If you were feeling sadistic you could write some AppleScript to do it for you.
  - howinteresting 3y ago
    Ah yes, then you download an app for that. And that app has its own updater. Then you realize you want your mouse and trackpad to scroll in reverse directions. So you download an app for that, which comes with its own updater. And then you want a flat acceleration profile for your mouse, and you download an app for that. That, too, comes with its own updater. Next, you realize that the Mac app-based cmd-tab sucks and you'd much rather have Windows-like behavior. So you download an app for that, which also comes with its own updater. (Yes, yes, I know the arguments Apple users bring out, it's always been done this way on Mac etc etc. Still really bad.) Then you get a taste of auto-tiling on Linux and spend a couple hours setting up yabai and skhd (thankfully updated via homebrew), before realizing that you'll need to turn off SIP [1] for a semi-usable experience. Then you do go and turn off SIP, and you realize that your iOS apps no longer work because macOS has DRM built into its hardware that detects if you've turned off SIP. And then, one of those apps prompts you for an update, and in doing so it steals your keyboard focus while you're typing. And you say "is this what I spent $2500 to experience", and cry. [1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai#requirements-and-caveats https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai#requirements-and-caveat...
    - Tao3300 3y ago
      What's an "update"? Don't you mean a helper? I come back from lunch and my MacBook sounds like a jet turbine and is nearly on fire. Something needs a whole CPU just to show me a freaking dialog.

binkHN 3y ago

> It has ... the quietest fans... Part of this is related to having one of the most power efficient CPUs.

favadi 3y ago
Even the fanless configuration is still fast enough for most use cases.

torstenvl 3y ago

I don't understand how people hate macOS. There are some frustrations (e.g., rapid deprecation of things like GC'd Obj-C or 32-bit apps, code signing and notarization) but they pale in comparison to other platforms (glibc compatibility, $500+ code signing certs for Windows/Android, etc.)

drawnwren 3y ago
The os being compared to here is linux. I fully understand that most devs don’t want to spend significant time customizing their OS to meet their workflow needs, but once you have a linux distro with a custom window manager —- I don’t see how you could reasonably claim the macos experience is comparable.
- NayamAmarshe 3y ago
  Nothing could convince me to drop PaperWM.
  - no_carrier 3y ago
    Same with Material Shell for me. I can no longer live without it.
- st3fan 3y ago
  It is not comparable. But which one is “better” is completely subjective.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Has more to do with privacy in my opinion: https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-now/ https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-n... The fact that you can no longer modify the boot volume and disable invasive services is the clincher.
- kaba0 3y ago
  You miss the forest for the trees — fedora also has a version with immutable roots, it is a feature, and is absolutely not meant as anti-privacy, it is there for proper rollbacks and imo it is absolutely superior (with NixOS’s model).

bodge5000 3y ago

The fatal flaw with its hardware, for me, is the lack of upgradability. I brought the lowest spec M1 air ~6 months ago, these are pricey machines and I had no idea whether I'd like the hardware/software, so wanted to go easy. Turns out, I really like it, but 8gb ram and 256gb ssd isn't enough. In the world of most laptops, this upgrade would cost me maybe £150. For Mac, this upgrade costs me £3,500 (for half as much storage as well), because I'd need to buy a whole new machine.

walthamstow 3y ago
Where did you get those numbers? By my reckoning the upgrade would cost you net about £700 brand new and the upgraded machine could last the rest of the decade. Buy the model I have, the 16gb 512gb M1 Air at £1400 new (or ~£1100 new-ish on eBay). Keep both for a few weeks, transfer your stuff over, then sell your 8gb 256gb M1 Air for ~£700.
- bodge5000 3y ago
  The numbers for the standard upgrade were from a quick search on amazon (2TB NVME = £100, 32gb DDR4 = £50), and for the MacBook was just the cheapest I could find for the closest specs (£3,500 would actually only get me 1TB storage, that's just the most apple has for a laptop it seems). 1TB would be the minimum for me, especially spending that kind of money. Also I doubt I'd get £700 for my MBA, seeing as that's how much I brought it for (refurbished from Apple). When I was buying it originally, the prices on eBay were more along the lines of £600. Even still, I don't factor in the money I'd get back from selling my previous machine
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Why wouldn’t you factor in the money you get for selling the current one? It is not an upgrade otherwise.
    - bodge5000 3y ago
      Its not an upgrade either way if you're buying a whole new machine. As for my reasons, there's a few. First of all, particularly on higher priced items, a lot of the trouble with the price comes to having the full amount in the first place. I can't walk into an Apple Store £700 short but tell them "don't worry, I'll have the rest later". Aside from that, actually selling the thing is no guarantee, especially not for £700. I remember going to buy a laptop on eBay over 3 years ago and I still see it up there now. It might not be as in demand as the MacBook would be, but the point holds. Even if it does sell, the question then is how long it takes before it does. Based on that, I assume if I can only afford something if I sell something else, I can't actually afford it. There's just too many factors involved. If I can afford the thing and I sell the old thing after, great, that's a nice bonus.