5 ms·

I don't think many people understand that when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken aw

I don't think many people understand that when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam if I ever get falsely banned. I have a lot more than $100 of content there.

bern4444 3y ago
When google shut down stadia they refunded everyones purchase.
pard68 3y ago
This is why I have switched to services like Bandcamp, Gog, etc. At least I can take the content with me.
qwytw 3y ago
That and maybe an iPhone and an iPad or two (do Macs also get bricked if you can't login using the connected account nowadays?) so $1000s at least.
Teever 3y ago
> I don't think many people understand... ...you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. And if that was a one-off sort of thing than I'd say "caveat emptor" but it's not a one-off, it's something we hear about all the time which makes me say "Holy shit sounds like fraud to me." If so many people are walking away from a transaction with a complete misconception about what it is that they transacted I question whether or not we can call what went on as a 'meeting of the minds.'
ck45 3y ago
It kinda already happened. Many older Mac games on steam are 32bit only. You can’t just run them on newer macs.
- nso 3y ago
  What is the difference between that and having bought a physical copy that only supports 32 bit? Noone has taken away your game library. You have bought a system that doesn't support your old games.
  - Lammy 3y ago
    You can resell or gift the physical copy.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      To who? With what hardware?
      - Lammy 3y ago
        To anyone who is willing to maintain compatible hardware. It's not really any different than asking what you can do with all your old VHS tapes or DVDs.
        hinkley 3y ago
        You're making the stated problem someone else's problem. That doesn't make it go away, that just makes it not your problem, yes?
  - hinkley 3y ago
    I have about given up on ever finishing those 32 bit games (watching youtube playthroughs is getting very tempting) but when I upgrade my laptop I started the habit of keeping the old one after a weird contract job I did where BYOD was allowed and what was offered was so bad that my old laptop was a better option. Last time I upgraded I forgot to sell the old one, so I still have one laptop that supports 32 bit games. I'm about due for a new laptop, and I'm thinking of selling the newer one and keeping the older one for this reason.
    - 3y ago
browningstreet 3y ago
> you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time ..or transferred. Which should reasonably be available (and is absolutely technically feasible) in the redditor's scenario.
CoolGuySteve 3y ago
True but this is exactly the sort of thing the FTC should be cracking down on. Consumer protections in the US are a joke.
- nickff 3y ago
  How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM (which is supported/endorsed by the US Government in legislation and by enforcement)?
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    Force that "Buy" button to read "Lease" or "Rent". The moment consumers understand it's not a real sale, they will pay more for the media they like.
    - jachee 3y ago
      I think “License” would be the most-honest label.
  - whycome 3y ago
    Making it so that the term ‘buy’ can’t be used unless you have unrestricted access?
  - derefr 3y ago
    Make sales of IP sub-licenses detach from their retailer and become direct licensing relationships between the rootmost IP owner and the buyer, represented in some public-good digital ledger of IP licenses. If I buy e.g. a game from publisher Foo on Steam, then I should be able to then freely download that game not only from Steam, but from any digital distributor who chooses to carry that game — including distributors that weren't even in business yet at the time I bought the game. Being a distributor of digital good X for your own customers, should legally obligate you to be a distributor for digital good X more generally, for anyone who has an IP license for digital good X. When I bought the game from publisher Foo on steam, I was really just paying Steam to go acquire for me an indefinite IP license from publisher Foo. Now that I have that license, I should be able to present it to any of these distributors to say "I have a license to consume this, so you have an obligation to deliver me a copy of it just as if I had bought it from you." Steam should not be able to hold that IP license hostage; it's not theirs, any more than a retail product I paid Amazon to ship to me is theirs. The IP license is now mine; I bought it; I own it. I don't own the work itself; but I do own the license itself. If I was a corporation, the license would be an asset on my balance sheet. (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!)
black_puppydog 3y ago
one of my favourite soap boxes. I'd like some ground-laying legislation about the use of the words "buy" and "sell". As a sanity-check, none of the "buying" and "selling" that happens on platforms like playstore, appstore, steam, prime video etc should be allowed to be called "buying". Use "pay-once renting" or "lifetime rent" or whatever. "Buying" should be reserved for transactions where the other party cannot (not "must not". cannot!) take back what they sold without involving a third party like the state.
alpaca128 3y ago
> when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product I have never seen an ebook product entry containing the word "license" in the name or description. And even if we assume that's fine, that still doesn't warrant taking away access to the product you bought. If you buy a DVD and stream the movie online you won't get raided and have all DVDs, CDs, vinyls and books taken away. Apple, Amazon etc are doing exactly that. Imho it should at least say "buy license", or ideally: "rent for an unknown amount of time, do you feel lucky?"
sangnoir 3y ago
> I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam if I ever get falsely banned Losing game saves is a moderate inconvenience, the games themselves are easy to pirate - I wouldn't feel guilty about doing so for titles I've previously purchased on Steam Edit: I just realized it will be different for those who play lots of multiplayer games or have accumulated a collection of "digital assets" on Steam
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
doctorpangloss 3y ago
Another perspective is that they aren't a brick and mortar retailer. After 30-90d, your money has been given to the people who made the thing. > I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam Well are you going to go to Colossal Order and demand refunds? The people who did this for Star Citizen occasionally prevailed. It's complicated.
Zambyte 3y ago
Unauthorized copying is not stealing if paying is not owning.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Unauthorized copying has never been stealing as far as the law is concerned.
ezfe 3y ago
Many people forget that when iTunes came out, you couldn't redownload purchases. If you download your Music, Movies, etc. they work offline and can be played indefinitely (yes, Movies have DRM but that DRM works offline).
danillonunes 3y ago
It's not that people don't understand, it's they're lied to. The wording the companies use are "buy this movie", "purchase this digital book", etc. You don't see a big green button reading "buy a license valid for undetermined time, that can be revoked in the future at our discretion".

bern4444 3y ago

When google shut down stadia they refunded everyones purchase.

pard68 3y ago

This is why I have switched to services like Bandcamp, Gog, etc. At least I can take the content with me.

qwytw 3y ago

That and maybe an iPhone and an iPad or two (do Macs also get bricked if you can't login using the connected account nowadays?) so $1000s at least.

Teever 3y ago

> I don't think many people understand... ...you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. And if that was a one-off sort of thing than I'd say "caveat emptor" but it's not a one-off, it's something we hear about all the time which makes me say "Holy shit sounds like fraud to me." If so many people are walking away from a transaction with a complete misconception about what it is that they transacted I question whether or not we can call what went on as a 'meeting of the minds.'

ck45 3y ago

It kinda already happened. Many older Mac games on steam are 32bit only. You can’t just run them on newer macs.

nso 3y ago
What is the difference between that and having bought a physical copy that only supports 32 bit? Noone has taken away your game library. You have bought a system that doesn't support your old games.
- Lammy 3y ago
  You can resell or gift the physical copy.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    To who? With what hardware?
    - Lammy 3y ago
      To anyone who is willing to maintain compatible hardware. It's not really any different than asking what you can do with all your old VHS tapes or DVDs.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        You're making the stated problem someone else's problem. That doesn't make it go away, that just makes it not your problem, yes?
- hinkley 3y ago
  I have about given up on ever finishing those 32 bit games (watching youtube playthroughs is getting very tempting) but when I upgrade my laptop I started the habit of keeping the old one after a weird contract job I did where BYOD was allowed and what was offered was so bad that my old laptop was a better option. Last time I upgraded I forgot to sell the old one, so I still have one laptop that supports 32 bit games. I'm about due for a new laptop, and I'm thinking of selling the newer one and keeping the older one for this reason.
  - 3y ago

browningstreet 3y ago

> you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time ..or transferred. Which should reasonably be available (and is absolutely technically feasible) in the redditor's scenario.

CoolGuySteve 3y ago

True but this is exactly the sort of thing the FTC should be cracking down on. Consumer protections in the US are a joke.

nickff 3y ago
How would the FTC fix this, other than by eliminating DRM (which is supported/endorsed by the US Government in legislation and by enforcement)?
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Force that "Buy" button to read "Lease" or "Rent". The moment consumers understand it's not a real sale, they will pay more for the media they like.
  - jachee 3y ago
    I think “License” would be the most-honest label.
- whycome 3y ago
  Making it so that the term ‘buy’ can’t be used unless you have unrestricted access?
- derefr 3y ago
  Make sales of IP sub-licenses detach from their retailer and become direct licensing relationships between the rootmost IP owner and the buyer, represented in some public-good digital ledger of IP licenses. If I buy e.g. a game from publisher Foo on Steam, then I should be able to then freely download that game not only from Steam, but from any digital distributor who chooses to carry that game — including distributors that weren't even in business yet at the time I bought the game. Being a distributor of digital good X for your own customers, should legally obligate you to be a distributor for digital good X more generally, for anyone who has an IP license for digital good X. When I bought the game from publisher Foo on steam, I was really just paying Steam to go acquire for me an indefinite IP license from publisher Foo. Now that I have that license, I should be able to present it to any of these distributors to say "I have a license to consume this, so you have an obligation to deliver me a copy of it just as if I had bought it from you." Steam should not be able to hold that IP license hostage; it's not theirs, any more than a retail product I paid Amazon to ship to me is theirs. The IP license is now mine; I bought it; I own it. I don't own the work itself; but I do own the license itself. If I was a corporation, the license would be an asset on my balance sheet. (And as well, acquiring this IP license should mean that I can also freely download the game from random websites/torrents. The distributor might not have a right to distribute the work, and so might get in trouble for sending it to me; but I shouldn't get in trouble for requesting or receiving it!)

black_puppydog 3y ago

one of my favourite soap boxes. I'd like some ground-laying legislation about the use of the words "buy" and "sell". As a sanity-check, none of the "buying" and "selling" that happens on platforms like playstore, appstore, steam, prime video etc should be allowed to be called "buying". Use "pay-once renting" or "lifetime rent" or whatever. "Buying" should be reserved for transactions where the other party cannot (not "must not". cannot!) take back what they sold without involving a third party like the state.

alpaca128 3y ago

> when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product I have never seen an ebook product entry containing the word "license" in the name or description. And even if we assume that's fine, that still doesn't warrant taking away access to the product you bought. If you buy a DVD and stream the movie online you won't get raided and have all DVDs, CDs, vinyls and books taken away. Apple, Amazon etc are doing exactly that. Imho it should at least say "buy license", or ideally: "rent for an unknown amount of time, do you feel lucky?"

sangnoir 3y ago

> I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam if I ever get falsely banned Losing game saves is a moderate inconvenience, the games themselves are easy to pirate - I wouldn't feel guilty about doing so for titles I've previously purchased on Steam Edit: I just realized it will be different for those who play lots of multiplayer games or have accumulated a collection of "digital assets" on Steam

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

doctorpangloss 3y ago

Another perspective is that they aren't a brick and mortar retailer. After 30-90d, your money has been given to the people who made the thing. > I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam Well are you going to go to Colossal Order and demand refunds? The people who did this for Star Citizen occasionally prevailed. It's complicated.

Zambyte 3y ago

Unauthorized copying is not stealing if paying is not owning.

kube-system 3y ago
Unauthorized copying has never been stealing as far as the law is concerned.

ezfe 3y ago

Many people forget that when iTunes came out, you couldn't redownload purchases. If you download your Music, Movies, etc. they work offline and can be played indefinitely (yes, Movies have DRM but that DRM works offline).

danillonunes 3y ago

It's not that people don't understand, it's they're lied to. The wording the companies use are "buy this movie", "purchase this digital book", etc. You don't see a big green button reading "buy a license valid for undetermined time, that can be revoked in the future at our discretion".