7 ms·

Saying autism depends on your microbiome is like saying your sexuality depends on it. Sure, might make sense, yet there is no single Person that changed its pre

Saying autism depends on your microbiome is like saying your sexuality depends on it. Sure, might make sense, yet there is no single Person that changed its preferences after a change in diet or microbiome death through antibiotics. That sounds like a pile of crap to me - Im autistic myself btw

edgyquant 3y ago
> there is no single Person that changed its preferences after a change in diet or microbiome death through antibiotics Seems like a huge claim you can’t backup due it being a negative.
- Teever 3y ago
  Yeah in a world where dogs can smell cancer and people with relatively mild brain injury can wake up permanently speaking in a different accent I think it's entirely possible that a radical change in microbiome due to freak accident or experimental treatment has resulted in a change in sexual preferences.
  - hammock 3y ago
    Interesting because people also used to say sexual preference was genetic
    - clipsy 3y ago
      > people Who?
    - valvar 3y ago
      It certainly has a heritable component. When people say "the way you're born", do they mean something non-genetic? What would that be?
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        There are lots of pre-natal environmental influences on “the way you’re born”, its not just genetics.
    - karaterobot 3y ago
      What do they say now?
    - svnt 3y ago
      Not strictly genetic, certainly, but in at least one configuration there is a clear effect that is perhaps genetic in the mother: > Biochemical evidence for this hypothesis was identified in 2017, finding mothers with a gay son, particularly those with older brothers, had heightened levels of antibodies to the NLGN4Y Y-protein than mothers with heterosexual sons.[1][2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_ma...
- go_elmo 3y ago
  I wanted to make it easy for you to disprove iff it does not holding - lack of such disprovals only strenghten my point.
kypro 3y ago
People can get depression and suffer other neurological issues after taking antibiotics can't they? I'm not saying your sexuality can change, but I thought there was fairly conclusive evidence that microbiome changes do impact people neurologically?
- go_elmo 3y ago
  The point is autism is a neurological condition - like a hardware wiring. Changing that because of bacteria can be compared to changing sexualities imo - and Im highly sceptical of it.
  - justin_kempton 3y ago
    From my understanding, the 'wiring' of an Autistic person's brain is pretty much the same as that of the neurotypical person. Of course, it should be noted that Autism is not one thing, but a constellation of possible ways of thinking. For example, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a trait common in Autistic people, but also a percentage of neurotypicals is not how the brain is wired, but a more complex mechanism that has not fully been understood. What I am trying to say is the analogy of wiring is wrong. Our brains are not static, like the wiring in the walls of a house. New connections are formed all of the time, old connections are forgotten. Perhaps we should be more inspired by mycelium connections then wires. Research might open up new ways of thinking, for Autistics and Neurotypicals alike. Imagine, thinking like a child.
    - go_elmo 3y ago
      No. Wiring in the sense of architecture. We process things from details to overview, bottom to top, while allistics do the opposite. Thats the wiring I meant. It is not wrong, you interpretet my analogy differently which can happen! Imagine the difference between intel and amd chips, both are x86 but they have a different architecture, even though the transistors work the same...
      - BadCookie 3y ago
mtsr 3y ago
I think it’s worth looking at what different facets are part of being autistic. It might be possible to differentiate between personality characteristics that are important to you (that you associate with your sense of self) and those that you can see as somewhat less essentially part of who you are. For example, you might have a particular way of thinking that is different from other people which is both important to you and often associated with ASD. That doesn’t feel like something likely to change qualitatively from say a diet change. On the other hand, there might be aspects like being overwhelmed by particular kinds of stimuli, that feel less personal and may feel more likely to be impacted be something like a diet change. Finally, consider that you might be holding too tightly to some aspects of who you are “right now”, to be able to see and accept how some of these things might change. I know I do sp sometimes (regardless of whether I might be on the spectrum, or not). At the very least a relatively fixed (as opposed to growth) mindset is also often associated with ASD.
- go_elmo 3y ago
  I agree that some parts might be fluid, especially what the term autism denotes and entails. The way I use it, it summarizes my neurological differences compared to allistics (non-autistics), not today and right now but throughout my _whole_ life. Anyone who says that autism can be cured, would therefore have to change my being fundamentally, which I personally would oppose, as it is this exact difference, that allowed me to get to points intelectualy where others were not before. If anyone wants to eradicate autism, sure, go for it, just dont expext any dirac, newton, einstein, and many others to ever get Born again. Yes, this topic releases a lot of emotions Im aware of that. Whats important to me is that being autistic means being different - not worse. "a relatively fixed mindset" sounds soo pathological. Autistics hold onto their constructs and routines, because their minds are too flexible and boundry less. I could frame that NT "rigidness" as a pathology just as well. Thanks for being that open and non black/white thinking to let that sink in and accept it because it comes from an autistic person who does know better about them than someone who is not. And Im aware of not targeting the main subject of gut bacteria here, and apologize for that. Im sure with your mental fitness youll be able to separate the two aspects and still value the insights shared, thanks!
slibhb 3y ago
I don't know -- Tao Lin claims he cured his autism by eating raw eggs and honey.
- go_elmo 3y ago
  I know people that claim to live from sunlight alone. Your point is meaningless
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    His claim at least isn’t a blatant lie while yours clearly is
    - go_elmo 3y ago
      So youre saying its not disproven that autism cannot be cured, hm interesting. Then you surely must also think that conversion therapy can work, many people there report it worked for them too, didnt they? And I did not lie. There are people who claim that. That they die weeks later is another part of the story. Point Im wanting to make: claims dont prove anything.
    - nemo 3y ago
      >His claim at least isn’t a blatant lie while yours clearly is Let's see what Tao Lin has to say for himself about being "cured": >Through nutrition, detoxification, exercise, writing (and other autism-friendly forms of self-expression), reading (allowing me to alleviate loneliness in private, without distress), cannabis, change-catalyzing psychedelics, meditation, and practice, I’ve become much less autistic since high school and college. I estimate I now range from 30 to 98 percent more autistic than my peers, depending on the hour, day, week, and month; every symptom varies, I’ve learned, depending on sleep, situation, inflammation levels, cultural consumption, mindset, and hundreds of other factors. see: https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/xl952r/tao_lin_claims_to_have_cured_his_autism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/xl952r/tao_lin... Note he didn't say he was cured at all, he said he's "30 to 98 percent more autistic than my peers," and also said that a lot of his treatment wasn't dietary. You might want to reflect on this a while. You introduced the idea of "lying" which isn't a generous way to interact with anyone. I'd suggest you consider giving others more of the benefit of the doubt. You're very wrong on multiple levels here, but I would never accuse you of lying, I believe you were just mistaken. I'd also suggest you spend a while doing more investigation into the claim that there's a "cure" for autism. No experts believe this, and the reason is because not only is there no reason to believe such an thing exists (and no evidence), but the idea of a "cure" probably fundamentally misunderstands what autism is to the best of our current knowledge.
Jacky4Chan 3y ago
Generally speaking, lesbians are more affected by PCOS than Heterosexual women.[1] PCOS is associated with higher androgen production due to insulin resistance. Do you know what decreases insulin resistance and changes gut microbiome composition? intermitent fasting. A review published in Frontiers in Microbiology in 2020 suggested that women with PCOS tend to have less diverse gut bacteria, and the balance of different types of bacteria might also be altered. The causal relationship is obviously not clear. 1. https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2804%2902227-7/fulltext https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2804%2902227-7/...
- go_elmo 3y ago
  Ok, lesbians have different microbiomes, nice to hear! Not relevant to the to be proven point that change to biome implies change in sexuality, none at all.
  - Jacky4Chan 3y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192250/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192250/ Maybe they play a role in insulin resistance which causes higher androgen production in women with PCOS, that impacts brain development.
    - go_elmo 3y ago
      There are alt-right theories that nutrition also impacts brain development such that global south people can not get as intelligent as white people. Where do you draw the line between your theory and that theory?
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        Nutrition demonstrably effects brain development, and this adversely effects both economically disadvantaged countries and economically disadvantaged populations in developed countries. That's not an alt-right theory. (No doubt, the alt-right has a very horrible “...and, therefore” for it, but that's a different issue.)
Frummy 3y ago
You’re right. That your viewpoint has so much resistance is just typical of how autistic people never get rapport in neurotypical discourses - even when it concerns the very perspective only they have.
- go_elmo 3y ago
  Thank you so much... It really feels like autistics are where lgbtq+ was 40 years ago - bad comparison some might, but the best one I know of!
mwbajor 3y ago
Theres no uniform definition of autism. If you go to 10 different psychiatrists for a diagnosis, you'll get 10 different answers most relying on heavy self reporting by either the parents or the patient. None of this is accurate.
- go_elmo 3y ago
  There is, its the dsm-5 diagnostic criteria. Sure, giving that diagnosis is no mathematical proof, but the criteria are clear.
  - mwbajor 3y ago
    I'm not saying there isn't criteria, I mispoke, I'm saying its not very objective. In other words, the criteria is so broad you can almost diagnose anyone with autism. Figuring out if a person has a particular problem is the first thing you need to do before you can correct that problem... and there appears to be no accurate way of doing that for autism.

edgyquant 3y ago

> there is no single Person that changed its preferences after a change in diet or microbiome death through antibiotics Seems like a huge claim you can’t backup due it being a negative.

Teever 3y ago
Yeah in a world where dogs can smell cancer and people with relatively mild brain injury can wake up permanently speaking in a different accent I think it's entirely possible that a radical change in microbiome due to freak accident or experimental treatment has resulted in a change in sexual preferences.
- hammock 3y ago
  Interesting because people also used to say sexual preference was genetic
  - clipsy 3y ago
    > people Who?
  - valvar 3y ago
    It certainly has a heritable component. When people say "the way you're born", do they mean something non-genetic? What would that be?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      There are lots of pre-natal environmental influences on “the way you’re born”, its not just genetics.
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    What do they say now?
  - svnt 3y ago
    Not strictly genetic, certainly, but in at least one configuration there is a clear effect that is perhaps genetic in the mother: > Biochemical evidence for this hypothesis was identified in 2017, finding mothers with a gay son, particularly those with older brothers, had heightened levels of antibodies to the NLGN4Y Y-protein than mothers with heterosexual sons.[1][2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_ma...
go_elmo 3y ago
I wanted to make it easy for you to disprove iff it does not holding - lack of such disprovals only strenghten my point.

kypro 3y ago

People can get depression and suffer other neurological issues after taking antibiotics can't they? I'm not saying your sexuality can change, but I thought there was fairly conclusive evidence that microbiome changes do impact people neurologically?

go_elmo 3y ago
The point is autism is a neurological condition - like a hardware wiring. Changing that because of bacteria can be compared to changing sexualities imo - and Im highly sceptical of it.
- justin_kempton 3y ago
  From my understanding, the 'wiring' of an Autistic person's brain is pretty much the same as that of the neurotypical person. Of course, it should be noted that Autism is not one thing, but a constellation of possible ways of thinking. For example, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a trait common in Autistic people, but also a percentage of neurotypicals is not how the brain is wired, but a more complex mechanism that has not fully been understood. What I am trying to say is the analogy of wiring is wrong. Our brains are not static, like the wiring in the walls of a house. New connections are formed all of the time, old connections are forgotten. Perhaps we should be more inspired by mycelium connections then wires. Research might open up new ways of thinking, for Autistics and Neurotypicals alike. Imagine, thinking like a child.
  - go_elmo 3y ago
    No. Wiring in the sense of architecture. We process things from details to overview, bottom to top, while allistics do the opposite. Thats the wiring I meant. It is not wrong, you interpretet my analogy differently which can happen! Imagine the difference between intel and amd chips, both are x86 but they have a different architecture, even though the transistors work the same...
    - BadCookie 3y ago

mtsr 3y ago

I think it’s worth looking at what different facets are part of being autistic. It might be possible to differentiate between personality characteristics that are important to you (that you associate with your sense of self) and those that you can see as somewhat less essentially part of who you are. For example, you might have a particular way of thinking that is different from other people which is both important to you and often associated with ASD. That doesn’t feel like something likely to change qualitatively from say a diet change. On the other hand, there might be aspects like being overwhelmed by particular kinds of stimuli, that feel less personal and may feel more likely to be impacted be something like a diet change. Finally, consider that you might be holding too tightly to some aspects of who you are “right now”, to be able to see and accept how some of these things might change. I know I do sp sometimes (regardless of whether I might be on the spectrum, or not). At the very least a relatively fixed (as opposed to growth) mindset is also often associated with ASD.

go_elmo 3y ago
I agree that some parts might be fluid, especially what the term autism denotes and entails. The way I use it, it summarizes my neurological differences compared to allistics (non-autistics), not today and right now but throughout my _whole_ life. Anyone who says that autism can be cured, would therefore have to change my being fundamentally, which I personally would oppose, as it is this exact difference, that allowed me to get to points intelectualy where others were not before. If anyone wants to eradicate autism, sure, go for it, just dont expext any dirac, newton, einstein, and many others to ever get Born again. Yes, this topic releases a lot of emotions Im aware of that. Whats important to me is that being autistic means being different - not worse. "a relatively fixed mindset" sounds soo pathological. Autistics hold onto their constructs and routines, because their minds are too flexible and boundry less. I could frame that NT "rigidness" as a pathology just as well. Thanks for being that open and non black/white thinking to let that sink in and accept it because it comes from an autistic person who does know better about them than someone who is not. And Im aware of not targeting the main subject of gut bacteria here, and apologize for that. Im sure with your mental fitness youll be able to separate the two aspects and still value the insights shared, thanks!

slibhb 3y ago

I don't know -- Tao Lin claims he cured his autism by eating raw eggs and honey.

go_elmo 3y ago
I know people that claim to live from sunlight alone. Your point is meaningless
- edgyquant 3y ago
  His claim at least isn’t a blatant lie while yours clearly is
  - go_elmo 3y ago
    So youre saying its not disproven that autism cannot be cured, hm interesting. Then you surely must also think that conversion therapy can work, many people there report it worked for them too, didnt they? And I did not lie. There are people who claim that. That they die weeks later is another part of the story. Point Im wanting to make: claims dont prove anything.
  - nemo 3y ago
    >His claim at least isn’t a blatant lie while yours clearly is Let's see what Tao Lin has to say for himself about being "cured": >Through nutrition, detoxification, exercise, writing (and other autism-friendly forms of self-expression), reading (allowing me to alleviate loneliness in private, without distress), cannabis, change-catalyzing psychedelics, meditation, and practice, I’ve become much less autistic since high school and college. I estimate I now range from 30 to 98 percent more autistic than my peers, depending on the hour, day, week, and month; every symptom varies, I’ve learned, depending on sleep, situation, inflammation levels, cultural consumption, mindset, and hundreds of other factors. see: https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/xl952r/tao_lin_claims_to_have_cured_his_autism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/xl952r/tao_lin... Note he didn't say he was cured at all, he said he's "30 to 98 percent more autistic than my peers," and also said that a lot of his treatment wasn't dietary. You might want to reflect on this a while. You introduced the idea of "lying" which isn't a generous way to interact with anyone. I'd suggest you consider giving others more of the benefit of the doubt. You're very wrong on multiple levels here, but I would never accuse you of lying, I believe you were just mistaken. I'd also suggest you spend a while doing more investigation into the claim that there's a "cure" for autism. No experts believe this, and the reason is because not only is there no reason to believe such an thing exists (and no evidence), but the idea of a "cure" probably fundamentally misunderstands what autism is to the best of our current knowledge.

Jacky4Chan 3y ago

Generally speaking, lesbians are more affected by PCOS than Heterosexual women.[1] PCOS is associated with higher androgen production due to insulin resistance. Do you know what decreases insulin resistance and changes gut microbiome composition? intermitent fasting. A review published in Frontiers in Microbiology in 2020 suggested that women with PCOS tend to have less diverse gut bacteria, and the balance of different types of bacteria might also be altered. The causal relationship is obviously not clear. 1. https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2804%2902227-7/fulltext https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2804%2902227-7/...

go_elmo 3y ago
Ok, lesbians have different microbiomes, nice to hear! Not relevant to the to be proven point that change to biome implies change in sexuality, none at all.
- Jacky4Chan 3y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192250/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192250/ Maybe they play a role in insulin resistance which causes higher androgen production in women with PCOS, that impacts brain development.
  - go_elmo 3y ago
    There are alt-right theories that nutrition also impacts brain development such that global south people can not get as intelligent as white people. Where do you draw the line between your theory and that theory?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      Nutrition demonstrably effects brain development, and this adversely effects both economically disadvantaged countries and economically disadvantaged populations in developed countries. That's not an alt-right theory. (No doubt, the alt-right has a very horrible “...and, therefore” for it, but that's a different issue.)

Frummy 3y ago

You’re right. That your viewpoint has so much resistance is just typical of how autistic people never get rapport in neurotypical discourses - even when it concerns the very perspective only they have.

go_elmo 3y ago
Thank you so much... It really feels like autistics are where lgbtq+ was 40 years ago - bad comparison some might, but the best one I know of!

mwbajor 3y ago

Theres no uniform definition of autism. If you go to 10 different psychiatrists for a diagnosis, you'll get 10 different answers most relying on heavy self reporting by either the parents or the patient. None of this is accurate.

go_elmo 3y ago
There is, its the dsm-5 diagnostic criteria. Sure, giving that diagnosis is no mathematical proof, but the criteria are clear.
- mwbajor 3y ago
  I'm not saying there isn't criteria, I mispoke, I'm saying its not very objective. In other words, the criteria is so broad you can almost diagnose anyone with autism. Figuring out if a person has a particular problem is the first thing you need to do before you can correct that problem... and there appears to be no accurate way of doing that for autism.