7 ms·

If you turn the complexity curve of debloating and custom Windows ROMs about 90 degrees, it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid ju

If you turn the complexity curve of debloating and custom Windows ROMs about 90 degrees, it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint.

Black616Angel 3y ago
No, then they tell you about all the not-working AAA-games they boycott and why that somehow hinders them of using Linux, which they by the way already tried in 1995 and it didn't work out back then so why should it now?
- netbioserror 3y ago
  If we're expecting consistency, the overlap between "AAA games boycott" and "Linux users" should be fairly significant. I'm doing my part, though I must say, the utterly whelming stock of third-person movie-games is making it a LOT easier.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  That's quite a fantasy you've cooked up there. There is nothing demonic about happily gaming on the supported software platform. I have Windows because I play games built for Windows. I have Fedora on my laptop. Edit: oh yeah, a fresh KDE fedora install with encrypted volumes can't open the file manager without doing a one time cli to create a thumbnails directory. And I can't watch h26(4|5) videos in YouTube, supposedly unless I enable a 3p repo and install a package which gives me a dependency conflict.
  - markbnj 3y ago
    Yeah this is me. I've been using Windows since version 3, and was a windows dev for many years before focusing on linux and open source. Now Windows is basically for steam games, media consumption and displaying my work laptop using NoMachine (VNC on steroids, since windows is in control of my two Dell 27" displays and a nice keyboard and mouse).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Hasn't Steam Deck pretty much solved that problem by shoveling such insane amounts of money into Wine/Proton that it is able to pretty much run everything you want in terms of games?
  - redserk 3y ago
    Unfortunately there are a select few (though popular) games like Valorant that won't run because they require anti-cheat software with Windows kernel-mode drivers. That said, it does support _a lot_.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Unfortunately very much not the case. There are still a lot of issues playing games outside of Steam, and not every game is available in steam. As someone else said there are some issues with anticheat (but some do work). It is also not unheard of for a game to have an update and it break the proton compatibility. Meaning anyone who wants to play the game has to wait for proton to update with a fix. But also, not every game on Steam works either.
danuker 3y ago
I have been surprised how easy it was to get my not-too-technically-savvy mum to use Manjaro. She spends the vast majority (if not all) of her time in the browser, so there's no difference.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  She’s since died, but my grandmother ran a minimal Linux distro I installed for her (I think lubuntu) for years and I think in 6 years or so had only one issue that needed help (someone to read the error message and okay the fsck). Otherwise, I doubt she noticed the difference from her prior Windows usage.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  I wouldn't have gone for Manjaro, but Linux environments with user friendly interfaces are great for many more people than they would appear to be at first glance. You'll need to play tech support every now and then ("I have a new printer, and...") and you'll need to teach people the basics, but a lot of occasional computer users will be happy with modern Linux. However, if you use your computer for your job, you'll either have an interest in learning how to accomplish it, or you'll have an awful time using Linux. Microsoft Office still has an edge over any open source product out there. Games work (sort of) through Steam, but if your games come from Epic you'll need to dive into the world of alternative launchers and compatibility layers to play them (if they even work at all). VPN/RDP software can usually work, if you put in the effort to learn about how they work under the hood and what configuration files you need to edit. This leads to a pretty wacky parabolic usability graph, where Linux is great for the people with the least amount of interest and knowledge about computers and for computer experts, but bad to unusable for those in the middle between the two. Desktop Linux has been bridging the gap, with more and better GUIs and better defaults, but as long as we'll have loud, hardcore "everybody needs to know the terminal or they shouldn't use Linux at all" Linux users I'm afraid ChromeOS will eat Linux's lunch before anyone even notices.
nerdjon 3y ago
I disagree, you are comparing a one time setup vs re-learning how to use your computer. Not to mention any later compatibility issues you may need to diagnose, particularly with gaming. Not everything works with Proton and there are other stores than just Steam. A debloated Windows is still Windows. Bundle this with a "use these debloat settings for gaming" and it could be just clicking a couple of buttons for the majority of users.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Windows breaks all the time for lots of people. My brother has a weird issue with his computer where it gets temporarily stuck in a boot loop if "fast startup" is enabled in Windows. After I figured this out I turned it off and it was fine(and booted faster!). Then Windows update happened and the setting was switched back on again. I'm not sure how to solve it other than periodically making sure it hasn't magically been turned on again.
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    For small-time users who aren't on a domain, there is no solution to reverted settings and other manifestations of contempt besides running LTSC. SWIM set himself up as an official IoT OEM to get legitimate licenses for his own use, but most people will have to pirate it. This is nobody's fault but Microsoft's.
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      I suspect that Microsoft's options were partially limited by people pirating Windows. To the extent that's true, I think the blame is shared. But that's just a footnote. I hold deep antipathy to Microsoft employees who made Windows into user-hostile spyware.
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        I don't think Microsoft has ever cared in the slightest about people pirating Windows. It's all about market share, as far as they're concerned, and market share is where you find it.
veave 3y ago
The day Linux Mint has a competent win32 and directx api (Wine is not there yet and may never be) I will switch. Windows is inconvenient at times but if I have to choose between inconvenience and not being able to use my programs... what's the point of having a computer if it can't run your programs?
- empyrrhicist 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, what programs?
  - veave 3y ago
    I know how this works: I give a list of programs, and someone comes and says "half of those run more or less well on wine, and then the other half have native alternatives that work more or less well".
    - empyrrhicist 3y ago
      Meh, I keep a Windows installation around for gaming myself, so I'm not hardcore about it. More and more of my work and personal stuff does move over to Linux every year though.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  > what's the point of having a computer if it can't run your programs? The point of having a computer is to be able to program it actually. This is not a TV appliance. So I would say the correct answer is port your programs to a better OS.
layer8 3y ago
Despite the slow enshittification of the Windows GUI, I still prefer it to the mess Linux has on the GUI front. Linux is great for CLI and headless. Hence I combine both.
- cobertos 3y ago
  Which parts are a mess? I don't think I could use Linux if it weren't for Linux Mint/Cinnamon specifically, as I haven't had good experiences with other desktop enviroments. It has one or two quirks, but at this point it's far less quirks than a fresh Windows install and the list of config options I had to change/the .reg file I started accumulating
  - layer8 3y ago
    > Which parts are a mess? Usability conventions between GUI applications. Keyboardability. GUI automation à la AutoHotKey. Font rendering. X vs. Wayland.
    - cobertos 3y ago
      Ah, I relate with some of these. Though, most of it has just been intermittent annoyances. There are things I've been able to do with X and xdotool I wouldn't have been able to do on Windows. GUI conventions have all been sane, but most things I use were things I ran on Windows (Krita, Insomnia, Discord, Obsidian, etc). Honestly, no more or less problems than Windows. But I've found it so much easier to debug by having readily available logs and man pages. I think this might just be my use cases though.
    - ndiddy 3y ago
      Modern Windows has problems with all of these as well due to the divide between classic Win32/MFC/etc programs, modern UWP/WinUI programs, and Electron programs (which each have a completely unique user interface).
      - layer8 3y ago
cobertos 3y ago
I was this person. I would have switched _years_ earlier had I known that with Linux Mint I would get Windows-like desktop, hotkeys, and explorer, taskbar, etc, which was so much better than my experiences with Ubuntu and Unity and other desktop environments. Cinnamon (Mint's desktop environment) is really nice. I regret not doing it sooner, my development life has become more focused and easier.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Yeah Cinnamon was really the turning point for me. The reality is Windows 95 more or less nailed the last paradigm we needed in desktop computing, and everything else is minor refinements. Cinnamon apes that very sensibly.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint No need to be snarky for a cheap shot at windows users who never bothered you with anything, not everyone is trying to avoid jumping or trying to jump. Get out of your (tech) bubble and touch some grass, plenty of Average Joe users are contempt using what's familiar and works for them out of the box with their Lenovo/Asus laptop, and use their free time for other things instead of learning about new GNU/Linux operating systems, because they have other hobbies and uses for their time, so no need to talk down on them off your IT high-horse. The group of people who can't go 5 minutes without bashing Windows 11, are just a loud minority (who don't use Windows 11 anyway lol) that goes unheard of in the "real world" where people have other stuff on their mind than worrying about their OS. Just live and let live, and use the energy you put in bashing Windows 11 online, towards something actually productive. Windows 11 users who are really unhappy will seek the change themselves.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  I didn't read the GP comment as bashing. I read it as simply asserting that the levels of effort were closer than some Windows users realize.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    The vast majority of Average Joes Windows users don't seek out debloating tools on GitHub though, but the HN hivemind is too self-absorbed and out of touch to realize this. Most users don't even know what GitHub is except maybe some website programmers use. And the users who do seek out debloating tools, it's because they need/prefer Windows over Linux mint despite them having the skills to learn to use Linux. It's not about effort, it's about necessity/preference/habit.
- jrm4 3y ago
  Oh, the sensitivity of the Windows defender. I'll keep repeating this. I've been doing "installing operating systems and intro to IT courses" for well over a decade now, for many different types of users at many skill levels. Out of the box Linux (e.g. Mint) is an across the board better operating system for anyone who doesn't need anything specifically tied to Windows. It's easier, it just works. I admit that it's not all "Linux people are awesome" as much as I would like -- it's "most everything most people need is available on the Web," which Linux is very good at. The Linux experience is roughly equal to the Mac experience, and Windows is third. Inertia is presently Windows Desktop only advantage.
jml78 3y ago
I dual boot because Linux still can’t play a huge number of games. Linux is for work. Win11 is for gaming
redserk 3y ago
Eh, depends on "easier". For day-to-day tasks as a technical user I use a Mac but wouldn't find it to be an issue to use linux for most of my work. However, my strictly-gaming PC runs Windows. It's by-far the easiest, least-effort, and overwhelmingly the most supported choice. I'm not wanting to put on the sysadmin hat when wanting to decompress after work.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint. As a Windows user, I need and want Windows. Not a free knockoff that will have me messing with the computer just so I can maybe do something with it.
vxNsr 3y ago
Just curious, does mint have an easy to set up cloud file system (easy as in login, click “yes backup”, and done) does it integrate with the word processor and spreadsheet software so that atomic changes are saved in real-time creating an easy version history? Do those same programs have online equivalents that allow multiple users to edit at the same time as me? Forget gaming, 90% of what I use my personal computer for is described above, I don’t find it fun to spend an afternoon trying to wrangle syncthing or spider sync into something that it wasn’t meant to be just to get a workflow that is first class in windows.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  Look up Free office; it's a 99% identical clone of the Microsoft Office suite for Mac and Linux, and it's free. Couple that with Dropbox (which has version history for files on its paid plan), and you're good to go. Dolphin, the best file manager, also integrates with Dropbox nicely. I don't know why anyone Linux-literate would recommend Mint though. Try KDE instead. I recommend Manjaro, which is a managed rolling release that always has brand new software. KDE is the best desktop environment on Linux, the most powerfully customizable and feature-rich as well as the most Windows-like. (Mint uses Cinnamon, which is much worse, fringe, and crashy than KDE. Linux Mint is what children use as their first distro lol.)
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    I looked up freeoffice, while it does have many similarities, the main thing I need: collaborative editing and auto-save don’t appear to be part of the features of the free version. Additionally, if Dropbox version history works the same way it did with MS365, I don’t need it in my life. We had that at work, there were constantly different versions of the same doc being created, and it was never clear which was the latest. Also the fact that there is a “best” file manager and it’s not the one that comes with the OS means this isn’t for me. I don’t enjoy spending every other weekend tweaking my tools to be just so, I just want sane defaults so I can do the thing I want with the tool. I know some people really enjoy the tweaking and for them, that’s the main reason to even have the tool, but for me, I like my tools to just work.
KeyBoardG 3y ago
Some people are stuck due to driver support. As streaming has been growing, ElGato has zero official support for Linux. I solved this by relegating Windows to a tiny 1 liter PC after enough Windows anti-patterns.
TwoNineA 3y ago
>> If you turn the complexity curve of debloating and custom Windows ROMs about 90 degrees, it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint. Let me know when Linux is running games that have Easy Anti Cheat or stuff from Blizzard. It's the day I will ditch my windows gaming rig. Until then, kindly STFU.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  StarCraft 2 and WoW ran great before Blizzard made the launcher not work. On the plus side, I mercifully no longer want to play the mediocre games of that horrible (soon to be owned by Microsoft like Bethesda? kekw) company. :D By being so unbelievably scummy and shitty for the last few years (aligning exactly with my shift to Linux), Blizzard and Bethesda have gone from my favorite game companies to my most hated, which is awful kind of them for eliminating the dilemma of dual booting.
- computerfriend 3y ago
  It's a Blizzard problem, not a Linux problem.
  - TwoNineA 3y ago
    No iCloud Drive on Linux is an Apple problem right?
    - computerfriend 3y ago
      If I write software and I don't support macOS, it's not a fault of macOS.
      - TwoNineA 3y ago
        Agree 100%, but it's also not a "problem" as you said with Blizzard. Blizzard as an entity made a decission to support only popular operating systems (Windows, PS5 OS and Xbox OS) for probably monetary reasons. That is not a "problem" but a choice on their end. That still doesn't justify GP's comment of "Just use Linux! It's betterer!!!!!one11eleventyone!". In an utopic world, everyone with a half brain would ditch Windows if the software they need would run fine on [insert other OS here]. In the real world, it's not possible.
hospitalJail 3y ago
If you don't have a video card, I agree. If you have a video card... It takes a few hours to figure it out. But yes, then you are free from Microsoft's hold.
myk9001 3y ago
Whatever, I'll bite. I'm a software developer. Some reasons I'm on Windows. 1. Font rendering Programmers, admins, devops, people in tech basically stare at text all day long. Some people seem to be oblivious to font rendering issues on Linux. If you're one of them, lucky you! I'm not looking for imperfections just to pick on them, my eyes do notice them though. 1.1 Subpixel smoothing. Was not a thing for a long time. I'm perfectly aware it wasn't due to technical reasons but because of patents on the technology. Withholding my judgment on the patent system overall, I'll just say knowing the reason didn't make it any easier on my eyes. Yes, you could rebuild libfreetype with `#define FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING` or hunt down and install an Infinality package. If you were on a distro with libfreetype compiled without that `#define` (as in almost all of them except Ubuntu), the very next thing you'd be faced with is the fact that packages relying on libfreetype check `ftoption.h` for the flag at compile time. Which makes sense -- how else would you check for a `define`? The result of this was that Firefox, KDE, Qt, and GTK apps wouldn't take advantage of subpixel rendering in libfreetype, unless you set out recompile all of them too (as I used to do). So much for the model of only single copy of a shared library in the system, I guess... But that has finally changed for the better 3 or 4(?) years ago. Now `FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING` is defined by default in all major distros, afaik. Alas, my eyes still can't stand Linux font rendering, which brings us to 1.2 Font kerning It's simple really, the spacing between letters looks uneven. Apart from making rendered text look ugly, it makes reading harder by breaking the visual rhythm of the text. I feel, it increases eye strain too. Head to this page for a visual illustration of what I'm going on about: https://pandasauce.org/post/linux-fonts/#the-ugliest-part https://pandasauce.org/post/linux-fonts/#the-ugliest-part Let me take a moment to remind you, our jobs involve staring at text all day long. Don't know about you, but to me good font rendering is a huge deal. 1.3 Config files Let's see, this Arch wiki page[^1] lists how many configuration files related to fonts? There's the fontconfig library with user configuration files in `~/.fonts.conf.d/`, there is XOrg's `~/.Xresources` for apps that don't support fontconfig, and then there is the gnome-tweaks, and xsettingsd utilities. This list is likely not exhaustive either. And it's not like you can ignore some of this configs and utilities, if you want consistent font rendering across the system, you'll have to futz around with most of them. A nice bonus, font rendering of Qt apps can and does break if run them in GNOME. Font rendering of GTK apps can and does break if you happen to start one in KDE. As they say, in Linux you can configure everything, and you will be configuring everything. But you're learning how your OS works under the hood? Yeah, no, not really. Learning how hardware works is interesting and potentially beneficial for your career prospects, same with learning how a kernel works, or, you know, even learning the fundamentals of font rendering can make you a better programmer. Learning to handle a bunch of config files scattered all over the place just to get fonts render half-decently is nothing but a waste of time. And I shudder to think just how much I personally wasted. That's it on fonts, but there's more on Linux. 2. Drivers Linus made an intentional, strategic decision early on: the kernel is not going to maintain backward-compatible ABI for drivers (don't confuse this with user-space backward-compatibility though). The idea was to put pressure on hardware vendors to make their drives open-source and add them to the kernel's source tree. The year is 2023, and it seems that decision back-fired just a little bit, at least for Desktop systems. But who knows, let's have a bit of patience, because important change doesn't come easy and fast. That said, while I don't care much about 3D acceleration, I really enjoy my laptop's touch-pad just working and its battery not draining because the discrete and integrated GPUs have no problems working in "hybrid" mode under Windows. That's probably it for the list of "global" things that are broken (just my opinion) in Linux. Mind you, not for the lack of material, I'm just out of steam by now. Just one thing to add about Mint in particular. 3. Linux Mint distro user-friendliness Last I checked, Mint had updates grouped into five categories numbered from 1 to 5. 1 being the least risky, 5 labeled Dangerous and colored red. The funny part is, many security updates would land in "5 - Dangerous". So, there you're having a security hole in your system, but it's dangerous to install an update patching it. Does it sound user-friendly to you? There was even a bit of drama around this subject back at the time[^2]. --- [^1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/font_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/font_configuration [^2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20131206095859/https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2013-November/014770.html https://web.archive.org/web/20131206095859/https://lists.ubu...

Black616Angel 3y ago

No, then they tell you about all the not-working AAA-games they boycott and why that somehow hinders them of using Linux, which they by the way already tried in 1995 and it didn't work out back then so why should it now?

netbioserror 3y ago
If we're expecting consistency, the overlap between "AAA games boycott" and "Linux users" should be fairly significant. I'm doing my part, though I must say, the utterly whelming stock of third-person movie-games is making it a LOT easier.
unethical_ban 3y ago
That's quite a fantasy you've cooked up there. There is nothing demonic about happily gaming on the supported software platform. I have Windows because I play games built for Windows. I have Fedora on my laptop. Edit: oh yeah, a fresh KDE fedora install with encrypted volumes can't open the file manager without doing a one time cli to create a thumbnails directory. And I can't watch h26(4|5) videos in YouTube, supposedly unless I enable a 3p repo and install a package which gives me a dependency conflict.
- markbnj 3y ago
  Yeah this is me. I've been using Windows since version 3, and was a windows dev for many years before focusing on linux and open source. Now Windows is basically for steam games, media consumption and displaying my work laptop using NoMachine (VNC on steroids, since windows is in control of my two Dell 27" displays and a nice keyboard and mouse).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mschuster91 3y ago
Hasn't Steam Deck pretty much solved that problem by shoveling such insane amounts of money into Wine/Proton that it is able to pretty much run everything you want in terms of games?
- redserk 3y ago
  Unfortunately there are a select few (though popular) games like Valorant that won't run because they require anti-cheat software with Windows kernel-mode drivers. That said, it does support _a lot_.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Unfortunately very much not the case. There are still a lot of issues playing games outside of Steam, and not every game is available in steam. As someone else said there are some issues with anticheat (but some do work). It is also not unheard of for a game to have an update and it break the proton compatibility. Meaning anyone who wants to play the game has to wait for proton to update with a fix. But also, not every game on Steam works either.

danuker 3y ago

I have been surprised how easy it was to get my not-too-technically-savvy mum to use Manjaro. She spends the vast majority (if not all) of her time in the browser, so there's no difference.

sokoloff 3y ago
She’s since died, but my grandmother ran a minimal Linux distro I installed for her (I think lubuntu) for years and I think in 6 years or so had only one issue that needed help (someone to read the error message and okay the fsck). Otherwise, I doubt she noticed the difference from her prior Windows usage.
jeroenhd 3y ago
I wouldn't have gone for Manjaro, but Linux environments with user friendly interfaces are great for many more people than they would appear to be at first glance. You'll need to play tech support every now and then ("I have a new printer, and...") and you'll need to teach people the basics, but a lot of occasional computer users will be happy with modern Linux. However, if you use your computer for your job, you'll either have an interest in learning how to accomplish it, or you'll have an awful time using Linux. Microsoft Office still has an edge over any open source product out there. Games work (sort of) through Steam, but if your games come from Epic you'll need to dive into the world of alternative launchers and compatibility layers to play them (if they even work at all). VPN/RDP software can usually work, if you put in the effort to learn about how they work under the hood and what configuration files you need to edit. This leads to a pretty wacky parabolic usability graph, where Linux is great for the people with the least amount of interest and knowledge about computers and for computer experts, but bad to unusable for those in the middle between the two. Desktop Linux has been bridging the gap, with more and better GUIs and better defaults, but as long as we'll have loud, hardcore "everybody needs to know the terminal or they shouldn't use Linux at all" Linux users I'm afraid ChromeOS will eat Linux's lunch before anyone even notices.

nerdjon 3y ago

I disagree, you are comparing a one time setup vs re-learning how to use your computer. Not to mention any later compatibility issues you may need to diagnose, particularly with gaming. Not everything works with Proton and there are other stores than just Steam. A debloated Windows is still Windows. Bundle this with a "use these debloat settings for gaming" and it could be just clicking a couple of buttons for the majority of users.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Windows breaks all the time for lots of people. My brother has a weird issue with his computer where it gets temporarily stuck in a boot loop if "fast startup" is enabled in Windows. After I figured this out I turned it off and it was fine(and booted faster!). Then Windows update happened and the setting was switched back on again. I'm not sure how to solve it other than periodically making sure it hasn't magically been turned on again.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  For small-time users who aren't on a domain, there is no solution to reverted settings and other manifestations of contempt besides running LTSC. SWIM set himself up as an official IoT OEM to get legitimate licenses for his own use, but most people will have to pirate it. This is nobody's fault but Microsoft's.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    I suspect that Microsoft's options were partially limited by people pirating Windows. To the extent that's true, I think the blame is shared. But that's just a footnote. I hold deep antipathy to Microsoft employees who made Windows into user-hostile spyware.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      I don't think Microsoft has ever cared in the slightest about people pirating Windows. It's all about market share, as far as they're concerned, and market share is where you find it.

veave 3y ago

The day Linux Mint has a competent win32 and directx api (Wine is not there yet and may never be) I will switch. Windows is inconvenient at times but if I have to choose between inconvenience and not being able to use my programs... what's the point of having a computer if it can't run your programs?

empyrrhicist 3y ago
Out of curiosity, what programs?
- veave 3y ago
  I know how this works: I give a list of programs, and someone comes and says "half of those run more or less well on wine, and then the other half have native alternatives that work more or less well".
  - empyrrhicist 3y ago
    Meh, I keep a Windows installation around for gaming myself, so I'm not hardcore about it. More and more of my work and personal stuff does move over to Linux every year though.
prmoustache 3y ago
> what's the point of having a computer if it can't run your programs? The point of having a computer is to be able to program it actually. This is not a TV appliance. So I would say the correct answer is port your programs to a better OS.

layer8 3y ago

Despite the slow enshittification of the Windows GUI, I still prefer it to the mess Linux has on the GUI front. Linux is great for CLI and headless. Hence I combine both.

cobertos 3y ago
Which parts are a mess? I don't think I could use Linux if it weren't for Linux Mint/Cinnamon specifically, as I haven't had good experiences with other desktop enviroments. It has one or two quirks, but at this point it's far less quirks than a fresh Windows install and the list of config options I had to change/the .reg file I started accumulating
- layer8 3y ago
  > Which parts are a mess? Usability conventions between GUI applications. Keyboardability. GUI automation à la AutoHotKey. Font rendering. X vs. Wayland.
  - cobertos 3y ago
    Ah, I relate with some of these. Though, most of it has just been intermittent annoyances. There are things I've been able to do with X and xdotool I wouldn't have been able to do on Windows. GUI conventions have all been sane, but most things I use were things I ran on Windows (Krita, Insomnia, Discord, Obsidian, etc). Honestly, no more or less problems than Windows. But I've found it so much easier to debug by having readily available logs and man pages. I think this might just be my use cases though.
  - ndiddy 3y ago
    Modern Windows has problems with all of these as well due to the divide between classic Win32/MFC/etc programs, modern UWP/WinUI programs, and Electron programs (which each have a completely unique user interface).
    - layer8 3y ago

cobertos 3y ago

I was this person. I would have switched _years_ earlier had I known that with Linux Mint I would get Windows-like desktop, hotkeys, and explorer, taskbar, etc, which was so much better than my experiences with Ubuntu and Unity and other desktop environments. Cinnamon (Mint's desktop environment) is really nice. I regret not doing it sooner, my development life has become more focused and easier.

XorNot 3y ago
Yeah Cinnamon was really the turning point for me. The reality is Windows 95 more or less nailed the last paradigm we needed in desktop computing, and everything else is minor refinements. Cinnamon apes that very sensibly.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint No need to be snarky for a cheap shot at windows users who never bothered you with anything, not everyone is trying to avoid jumping or trying to jump. Get out of your (tech) bubble and touch some grass, plenty of Average Joe users are contempt using what's familiar and works for them out of the box with their Lenovo/Asus laptop, and use their free time for other things instead of learning about new GNU/Linux operating systems, because they have other hobbies and uses for their time, so no need to talk down on them off your IT high-horse. The group of people who can't go 5 minutes without bashing Windows 11, are just a loud minority (who don't use Windows 11 anyway lol) that goes unheard of in the "real world" where people have other stuff on their mind than worrying about their OS. Just live and let live, and use the energy you put in bashing Windows 11 online, towards something actually productive. Windows 11 users who are really unhappy will seek the change themselves.

CoastalCoder 3y ago
I didn't read the GP comment as bashing. I read it as simply asserting that the levels of effort were closer than some Windows users realize.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  The vast majority of Average Joes Windows users don't seek out debloating tools on GitHub though, but the HN hivemind is too self-absorbed and out of touch to realize this. Most users don't even know what GitHub is except maybe some website programmers use. And the users who do seek out debloating tools, it's because they need/prefer Windows over Linux mint despite them having the skills to learn to use Linux. It's not about effort, it's about necessity/preference/habit.
jrm4 3y ago
Oh, the sensitivity of the Windows defender. I'll keep repeating this. I've been doing "installing operating systems and intro to IT courses" for well over a decade now, for many different types of users at many skill levels. Out of the box Linux (e.g. Mint) is an across the board better operating system for anyone who doesn't need anything specifically tied to Windows. It's easier, it just works. I admit that it's not all "Linux people are awesome" as much as I would like -- it's "most everything most people need is available on the Web," which Linux is very good at. The Linux experience is roughly equal to the Mac experience, and Windows is third. Inertia is presently Windows Desktop only advantage.

jml78 3y ago

I dual boot because Linux still can’t play a huge number of games. Linux is for work. Win11 is for gaming

redserk 3y ago

Eh, depends on "easier". For day-to-day tasks as a technical user I use a Mac but wouldn't find it to be an issue to use linux for most of my work. However, my strictly-gaming PC runs Windows. It's by-far the easiest, least-effort, and overwhelmingly the most supported choice. I'm not wanting to put on the sysadmin hat when wanting to decompress after work.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint. As a Windows user, I need and want Windows. Not a free knockoff that will have me messing with the computer just so I can maybe do something with it.

vxNsr 3y ago

Just curious, does mint have an easy to set up cloud file system (easy as in login, click “yes backup”, and done) does it integrate with the word processor and spreadsheet software so that atomic changes are saved in real-time creating an easy version history? Do those same programs have online equivalents that allow multiple users to edit at the same time as me? Forget gaming, 90% of what I use my personal computer for is described above, I don’t find it fun to spend an afternoon trying to wrangle syncthing or spider sync into something that it wasn’t meant to be just to get a workflow that is first class in windows.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
Look up Free office; it's a 99% identical clone of the Microsoft Office suite for Mac and Linux, and it's free. Couple that with Dropbox (which has version history for files on its paid plan), and you're good to go. Dolphin, the best file manager, also integrates with Dropbox nicely. I don't know why anyone Linux-literate would recommend Mint though. Try KDE instead. I recommend Manjaro, which is a managed rolling release that always has brand new software. KDE is the best desktop environment on Linux, the most powerfully customizable and feature-rich as well as the most Windows-like. (Mint uses Cinnamon, which is much worse, fringe, and crashy than KDE. Linux Mint is what children use as their first distro lol.)
- vxNsr 3y ago
  I looked up freeoffice, while it does have many similarities, the main thing I need: collaborative editing and auto-save don’t appear to be part of the features of the free version. Additionally, if Dropbox version history works the same way it did with MS365, I don’t need it in my life. We had that at work, there were constantly different versions of the same doc being created, and it was never clear which was the latest. Also the fact that there is a “best” file manager and it’s not the one that comes with the OS means this isn’t for me. I don’t enjoy spending every other weekend tweaking my tools to be just so, I just want sane defaults so I can do the thing I want with the tool. I know some people really enjoy the tweaking and for them, that’s the main reason to even have the tool, but for me, I like my tools to just work.

KeyBoardG 3y ago

Some people are stuck due to driver support. As streaming has been growing, ElGato has zero official support for Linux. I solved this by relegating Windows to a tiny 1 liter PC after enough Windows anti-patterns.

TwoNineA 3y ago

>> If you turn the complexity curve of debloating and custom Windows ROMs about 90 degrees, it's the same as the backwards bend Windows users are doing to avoid jumping to something easier like Linux Mint. Let me know when Linux is running games that have Easy Anti Cheat or stuff from Blizzard. It's the day I will ditch my windows gaming rig. Until then, kindly STFU.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
StarCraft 2 and WoW ran great before Blizzard made the launcher not work. On the plus side, I mercifully no longer want to play the mediocre games of that horrible (soon to be owned by Microsoft like Bethesda? kekw) company. :D By being so unbelievably scummy and shitty for the last few years (aligning exactly with my shift to Linux), Blizzard and Bethesda have gone from my favorite game companies to my most hated, which is awful kind of them for eliminating the dilemma of dual booting.
computerfriend 3y ago
It's a Blizzard problem, not a Linux problem.
- TwoNineA 3y ago
  No iCloud Drive on Linux is an Apple problem right?
  - computerfriend 3y ago
    If I write software and I don't support macOS, it's not a fault of macOS.
    - TwoNineA 3y ago
      Agree 100%, but it's also not a "problem" as you said with Blizzard. Blizzard as an entity made a decission to support only popular operating systems (Windows, PS5 OS and Xbox OS) for probably monetary reasons. That is not a "problem" but a choice on their end. That still doesn't justify GP's comment of "Just use Linux! It's betterer!!!!!one11eleventyone!". In an utopic world, everyone with a half brain would ditch Windows if the software they need would run fine on [insert other OS here]. In the real world, it's not possible.

hospitalJail 3y ago

If you don't have a video card, I agree. If you have a video card... It takes a few hours to figure it out. But yes, then you are free from Microsoft's hold.

myk9001 3y ago

Whatever, I'll bite. I'm a software developer. Some reasons I'm on Windows. 1. Font rendering Programmers, admins, devops, people in tech basically stare at text all day long. Some people seem to be oblivious to font rendering issues on Linux. If you're one of them, lucky you! I'm not looking for imperfections just to pick on them, my eyes do notice them though. 1.1 Subpixel smoothing. Was not a thing for a long time. I'm perfectly aware it wasn't due to technical reasons but because of patents on the technology. Withholding my judgment on the patent system overall, I'll just say knowing the reason didn't make it any easier on my eyes. Yes, you could rebuild libfreetype with `#define FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING` or hunt down and install an Infinality package. If you were on a distro with libfreetype compiled without that `#define` (as in almost all of them except Ubuntu), the very next thing you'd be faced with is the fact that packages relying on libfreetype check `ftoption.h` for the flag at compile time. Which makes sense -- how else would you check for a `define`? The result of this was that Firefox, KDE, Qt, and GTK apps wouldn't take advantage of subpixel rendering in libfreetype, unless you set out recompile all of them too (as I used to do). So much for the model of only single copy of a shared library in the system, I guess... But that has finally changed for the better 3 or 4(?) years ago. Now `FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING` is defined by default in all major distros, afaik. Alas, my eyes still can't stand Linux font rendering, which brings us to 1.2 Font kerning It's simple really, the spacing between letters looks uneven. Apart from making rendered text look ugly, it makes reading harder by breaking the visual rhythm of the text. I feel, it increases eye strain too. Head to this page for a visual illustration of what I'm going on about: https://pandasauce.org/post/linux-fonts/#the-ugliest-part https://pandasauce.org/post/linux-fonts/#the-ugliest-part Let me take a moment to remind you, our jobs involve staring at text all day long. Don't know about you, but to me good font rendering is a huge deal. 1.3 Config files Let's see, this Arch wiki page[^1] lists how many configuration files related to fonts? There's the fontconfig library with user configuration files in `~/.fonts.conf.d/`, there is XOrg's `~/.Xresources` for apps that don't support fontconfig, and then there is the gnome-tweaks, and xsettingsd utilities. This list is likely not exhaustive either. And it's not like you can ignore some of this configs and utilities, if you want consistent font rendering across the system, you'll have to futz around with most of them. A nice bonus, font rendering of Qt apps can and does break if run them in GNOME. Font rendering of GTK apps can and does break if you happen to start one in KDE. As they say, in Linux you can configure everything, and you will be configuring everything. But you're learning how your OS works under the hood? Yeah, no, not really. Learning how hardware works is interesting and potentially beneficial for your career prospects, same with learning how a kernel works, or, you know, even learning the fundamentals of font rendering can make you a better programmer. Learning to handle a bunch of config files scattered all over the place just to get fonts render half-decently is nothing but a waste of time. And I shudder to think just how much I personally wasted. That's it on fonts, but there's more on Linux. 2. Drivers Linus made an intentional, strategic decision early on: the kernel is not going to maintain backward-compatible ABI for drivers (don't confuse this with user-space backward-compatibility though). The idea was to put pressure on hardware vendors to make their drives open-source and add them to the kernel's source tree. The year is 2023, and it seems that decision back-fired just a little bit, at least for Desktop systems. But who knows, let's have a bit of patience, because important change doesn't come easy and fast. That said, while I don't care much about 3D acceleration, I really enjoy my laptop's touch-pad just working and its battery not draining because the discrete and integrated GPUs have no problems working in "hybrid" mode under Windows. That's probably it for the list of "global" things that are broken (just my opinion) in Linux. Mind you, not for the lack of material, I'm just out of steam by now. Just one thing to add about Mint in particular. 3. Linux Mint distro user-friendliness Last I checked, Mint had updates grouped into five categories numbered from 1 to 5. 1 being the least risky, 5 labeled Dangerous and colored red. The funny part is, many security updates would land in "5 - Dangerous". So, there you're having a security hole in your system, but it's dangerous to install an update patching it. Does it sound user-friendly to you? There was even a bit of drama around this subject back at the time[^2]. --- [^1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/font_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/font_configuration [^2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20131206095859/https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2013-November/014770.html https://web.archive.org/web/20131206095859/https://lists.ubu...