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The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st. You'd think no one wanting to murder you is the best state, but practically people will have strong feelings ab

The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st. You'd think no one wanting to murder you is the best state, but practically people will have strong feelings about a lot of things in life, and it's hard to imagine a healthy society where "that would look bad on me" is enough to restrain you from your deepest anger moments. Having no immediate way to murder you + an active police to protect you should be the barrier to avoid a tragedy. Japan is no exception. People get murdered everyday, but there is a lot of prevention and arrangement to limit the impact of a single individual going berserk. Police patrol will catch you walking down an empty street at 3 AM with a kitchen knife in hand.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st. Is this a coy way of saying not all diversity is good? Sure you have more would-be-murderers but obviously Id take a less diverse group if thats the diversity. My point with Japan was not about murders. They have laws against murder. Even still, the prevention mechanisms are weaker. Less lethal equipment and training, not positioned in schools, etc. It was more about social expectations that are not enforced but are more strictly followed than in the west because of a sort of shame. The point is not even that more social shaming is strictly better, just that it’s certainly a stronger guide rail on behavior than rules that people otherwise sont care about.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  This is a point that feels difficult to make, but yes, to my eyes more diversity is better, even at the cost of slightly more social chaos and a rougher social landscape (with some balance). In a way I think Japan is paying that price in that it has a harder time to adapt to change and is slower to adapt new ideas. Japanese people are inventive and come up with a lot of good ideas, but society's homogeneity and stability means the hurdle to get any idea past the critical point is that much higher. Cash is still the only payment method allowed in a ton of commerce for instance, when Japan actually has so much advance regarding electronic payment variety and barrier to use. On would-be-murderers, I am supposing they're not just different in their murdering intents, but also have different ideas, views of the world, and can deal with some situations better than the more obedient people. I'd see it as the best of both world if we could let them bring new ideas and try different things, while keeping active systems and arrangements preventing them from going to the dark side. I wonder if Canada for instance is succeeding in this balancing act. I don't hate Japan as it currently is, but I think it stagnated way too long and it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue.
godelski 3y ago
> it's hard to imagine a healthy society where "that would look bad on me" is enough to restrain you from your deepest anger moments. Really shame and accountability only work at small scale. Which should be rather obvious given that you like your friends and will associate with family members who you highly disagree with on fundamental issues, but you wouldn't have a tenth of the patience for some rando at a bar who's even closer to your opinions than those people. As for laws and prevention, we have thousands of years of evidence for systems that don't work. Murders are even rather high in places with exceedingly draconian laws around them and weapons. Maybe, just maybe, it isn't the core reason that people don't murder. Maybe, just maybe, it has to do with something else. I mean it isn't like we give women stronger punishments when they murder and that's why they murder at nearly an magnitude lower of a rate than men.
ffhhttt 3y ago
> Police patrol will catch you walking down an empty street at 3 AM with a kitchen knife in hand. That’s really not the (main or significant) reason why Japan has a low murder rate. Many European countries where there is little societal pressure, direct control and enforcement, drug use is fairly widespread and low level crime is rampant in large urban centers (compared to Japan of course) have comparable murder rates. In this regard US is a huge outlier compared to pretty much all other “first world” countries.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Murder rate is a compound of many factors of course. I'd see the ban on firearms and control at the frontiers as the #1 reason there's so few violent crimes. The worse incidents outside of organized crime ducking it out have been people running around with knives, and it that limits a lot the extent of crimes. In comparison, european countries are more connected and the networks will be a lot more international. For instance Marseille has a kind of violent crime that comes from guns and drugs smuggled at the port that won't happen as much in Japan (Fukuoka is a city of its kind in that regard...) On police presence, you'll see crime rate similar to Japan in well funded districts that have a very local and always present police. That makes them part or the everyday life, they will be more relaxed, more aware of the oddities and weird behaviors, and residents will also rely on them more as they are familiar instead of being some kind of alien presence. Of course these cities will also probably spend more on school equipment, libraries, public infra etc. This costs money/taxes that not every city has or is willing to spend.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    > I'd see the ban on firearms and control at the frontiers as the #1 reason there's so few violent crimes. However we have countries like Switzerland were firearms are widely accessible (IIRC according to estimates more than half of the gun in the country are not even registered since they did not require that before joining Schengen) and there there is basically no frontier if you’re traveling on land. And yet the murder rate in Switzerland is not that mich higher than in Japan.

nonethewiser 3y ago

> The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st. Is this a coy way of saying not all diversity is good? Sure you have more would-be-murderers but obviously Id take a less diverse group if thats the diversity. My point with Japan was not about murders. They have laws against murder. Even still, the prevention mechanisms are weaker. Less lethal equipment and training, not positioned in schools, etc. It was more about social expectations that are not enforced but are more strictly followed than in the west because of a sort of shame. The point is not even that more social shaming is strictly better, just that it’s certainly a stronger guide rail on behavior than rules that people otherwise sont care about.

makeitdouble 3y ago
This is a point that feels difficult to make, but yes, to my eyes more diversity is better, even at the cost of slightly more social chaos and a rougher social landscape (with some balance). In a way I think Japan is paying that price in that it has a harder time to adapt to change and is slower to adapt new ideas. Japanese people are inventive and come up with a lot of good ideas, but society's homogeneity and stability means the hurdle to get any idea past the critical point is that much higher. Cash is still the only payment method allowed in a ton of commerce for instance, when Japan actually has so much advance regarding electronic payment variety and barrier to use. On would-be-murderers, I am supposing they're not just different in their murdering intents, but also have different ideas, views of the world, and can deal with some situations better than the more obedient people. I'd see it as the best of both world if we could let them bring new ideas and try different things, while keeping active systems and arrangements preventing them from going to the dark side. I wonder if Canada for instance is succeeding in this balancing act. I don't hate Japan as it currently is, but I think it stagnated way too long and it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue.

godelski 3y ago

> it's hard to imagine a healthy society where "that would look bad on me" is enough to restrain you from your deepest anger moments. Really shame and accountability only work at small scale. Which should be rather obvious given that you like your friends and will associate with family members who you highly disagree with on fundamental issues, but you wouldn't have a tenth of the patience for some rando at a bar who's even closer to your opinions than those people. As for laws and prevention, we have thousands of years of evidence for systems that don't work. Murders are even rather high in places with exceedingly draconian laws around them and weapons. Maybe, just maybe, it isn't the core reason that people don't murder. Maybe, just maybe, it has to do with something else. I mean it isn't like we give women stronger punishments when they murder and that's why they murder at nearly an magnitude lower of a rate than men.

ffhhttt 3y ago

> Police patrol will catch you walking down an empty street at 3 AM with a kitchen knife in hand. That’s really not the (main or significant) reason why Japan has a low murder rate. Many European countries where there is little societal pressure, direct control and enforcement, drug use is fairly widespread and low level crime is rampant in large urban centers (compared to Japan of course) have comparable murder rates. In this regard US is a huge outlier compared to pretty much all other “first world” countries.

makeitdouble 3y ago
Murder rate is a compound of many factors of course. I'd see the ban on firearms and control at the frontiers as the #1 reason there's so few violent crimes. The worse incidents outside of organized crime ducking it out have been people running around with knives, and it that limits a lot the extent of crimes. In comparison, european countries are more connected and the networks will be a lot more international. For instance Marseille has a kind of violent crime that comes from guns and drugs smuggled at the port that won't happen as much in Japan (Fukuoka is a city of its kind in that regard...) On police presence, you'll see crime rate similar to Japan in well funded districts that have a very local and always present police. That makes them part or the everyday life, they will be more relaxed, more aware of the oddities and weird behaviors, and residents will also rely on them more as they are familiar instead of being some kind of alien presence. Of course these cities will also probably spend more on school equipment, libraries, public infra etc. This costs money/taxes that not every city has or is willing to spend.
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  > I'd see the ban on firearms and control at the frontiers as the #1 reason there's so few violent crimes. However we have countries like Switzerland were firearms are widely accessible (IIRC according to estimates more than half of the gun in the country are not even registered since they did not require that before joining Schengen) and there there is basically no frontier if you’re traveling on land. And yet the murder rate in Switzerland is not that mich higher than in Japan.