6 ms·

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame

by _8j50 3y ago

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame. What is more evil than being proud of doing wrong by your own standards? You can debate what is right ir wrong or even what morality is but refusing to feel shame is embracing evil.

HWR_14 3y ago
For someone who leans hard into moral relativism, and specifically calls out moral relativism as the right way to consider shame, you have a very long list of things that shame will solve. What about the trump supporting gun worshiping climate change deniers who don't feel they are wrong? Is "the question not relevant to [them]"? Meanwhile, I used "gay" as an example because a lot of gay people feel shame about it and it's very bad for those people. It's an example of something with shame attached that clearly shouldn't.
- _8j50 3y ago
  If we can agree that you should feel shame when you do wrong the reasoning with people (and ourselves) about what is wrong and why can have an effect. Right now, because the lack of shame, all sorts if mental gymnastics and alternate realities are fabricated by people for appearances sake. > it's very bad for those people I don't get it, are you saying shame is bad for gay people because their guilt is justified? I have to disagree with that, you can talk about the guilt that precedes shame but shame in itself is a corrective tool.
hattmall 3y ago
But why do you think people would / should feel shame with the things you listed just because you don't agree with them? I feel like most of what you listed is the type of people that do feel shame and actually incorporate that into their positions.
- _8j50 3y ago
  Those were people I strongly believe avoid shame. They cal everything fake news or a conspiracy. Every racist these days goes "i am not a racist? But..." these days lol. They are very proud of their ways and proudly defend their self-deception.
  - hattmall 3y ago
    What would fake news and conspiracies have to with shame though. They are rarely in the same vein. There are millions of statements that can be preceded by "I am not racist but" and that's because people use accusations of racism to avoid shame. Pointing out a factual but negative stereotype will have you called racism because the shameful and destructive behavior isn't being acknowledged.
pkdpic 3y ago
I like the distinction between being shamed and feeling shamed. And although as a home owner in a northern california downtown area I couldn't agree more that shame feels absent in a lot of the behavior plaguing our communities in a multitude of capacities, Im reminded of the rumors I hear about how dysfunctional shame-grounded societies like Japan are for those who don't fit into normalized parameters. Anyway its making me wonder, has the US ever been strongly rooted in shame as a non-homogeneous nation? If so when and why did we stop? Growing up in the bay area I feel like I might have a pretty warped view...
saulpw 3y ago
That's the thing about shame, it's NOT your own standards, it's society's (your parents') standards that have been inculcated into you since before you were born. I remember a post by a guy on reddit who was waiting for his g/f in a gas station and tried on some sunglasses on the rack before he realized they were women's sunglasses. and he felt such an immense shock of shame that he almost threw them on the floor. He realized how ridiculous this was (hence the post) but it doesn't matter, that shame runs really deep and takes a long time and a huge personal effort to truly overcome. This is why people have had such a hard time coming to terms with being gay, and that leaks out in all kinds of terrible ways. If society only used shame for truly reprehensible, amoral, antisocial behavior, then sure, the original commenter is making a great point. But shame has been weaponized. Look around you. People are being shamed for being poor, fat, disabled, lazy, oversexed, undersexed, voting wrong, not voting, you name it. So some of us live in a state of constant shame for innocuous behavior and others of us cope by becoming shameless. Even here, you're trying to cast shame upon the shameless, with "refusing to feel shame is embracing evil".
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  OK, now do pooping on a sidewalk
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I don’t think conflating mental unwellness (which can imply an inability to feel shame) with an absence of shame in otherwise mentally well people does any particular justice to the situation. Mentally well people don’t defecate on streets, at least not under anything less than extreme privation. Those experiencing that privation likely already feel ample shame over it.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      People without shame are mentally unwell.
      - 3y ago
dumpsterdiver 3y ago
> So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... As you say, shame works very well. I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. I'm also baffled as to why you would think that anyone would be ashamed of their beliefs when they were raised to believe those things. It appears that the left side of your argument isn't aware of what the right side just said. Edit: In conclusion, your argument does not hold water. It assumes that your opponents do not think deeply upon contentious matters, and only you and yours do (and so, by your account, anyone who shares your beliefs should never feel shame, because they are simply correct). You are dismissing the beliefs of your opponents without bothering to look into the nuance of any single individual's personal stance, and instead painting half our population as extremists. You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- _8j50 3y ago
  > I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. It isn't an assumption, it is my observation. Those examples are types of people that typically (not always) know they are causing harm and even by their own standards their actions are immoral. The nuances of individual's beliefs matter, just not for my brief example. But also, these nuances end up being mental gymanstics created as a result of cognitive dissonance and self deception, to avoid self-confrontation that might result out of shame. > You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. I did nor label all republicans anything but trumpists are either sociopaths or shameless people. Knowing the objectively observable acte of that man, you would have to create so many excuses and claim every fact before you as a conspiracy or "fake news" to avoid feeling shame for supporting him. Republicans as a whole (democrarts too in their own way) are quite the shameless insidious bunch, either willfully ignorant or intentionally malicious to their fellow man. Keep in mind, I am judging people here based on my own beliefs, but my argument is that any reasonable moral system (especially Christianity) that the people i listed hold agrees with my belief. There are things, like cruelty for the sake of it or tormenting children that just don't give you any gray middle ground for excuses so you have to challenge reality and facts to allow your behavior to continue without shame. > You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself. You don't know anything about me but yes, in my own way I have my own mountains of shame, I hope I am not being shameless about anything I did wrong. I am not saving anyone else, I only mentioned those groups you objected to because they cause harm to me or people i care about without feeling shame, I am merely reducing harm and danger to me and mine. Anyone that claims they don't need saving are too busy digging a hole they can't climb out of.
nonethewiser 3y ago
Add sexual degeneracy to the list Someone please explain to me how sexual degeneracy doesn’t exist. Its by definition bad, right? So if its not a problem doesnt that mean it doesn’t exist?
sunderw 3y ago
You are saying > the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. > If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame It implies that the list of people you don't like think they did something wrong but refuse to feel shame about it. To me, all those people are not shameless - in the sense that they don't feel shame _at all_ -, but don't feel shame because they don't feel like they did something wrong (how can you think you're wrong when you don't _believe_ in climate change ?). So shame in itself is not the problem.
- _8j50 3y ago
  I didn't say I don't like those people, I said i believe they feel guilt yet avoid shame by using flawed reasoning and self deception. Those were just examples i thought would help sell my point to the HN crowd.

by _8j50 3y ago

HWR_14 3y ago

For someone who leans hard into moral relativism, and specifically calls out moral relativism as the right way to consider shame, you have a very long list of things that shame will solve. What about the trump supporting gun worshiping climate change deniers who don't feel they are wrong? Is "the question not relevant to [them]"? Meanwhile, I used "gay" as an example because a lot of gay people feel shame about it and it's very bad for those people. It's an example of something with shame attached that clearly shouldn't.

_8j50 3y ago
If we can agree that you should feel shame when you do wrong the reasoning with people (and ourselves) about what is wrong and why can have an effect. Right now, because the lack of shame, all sorts if mental gymnastics and alternate realities are fabricated by people for appearances sake. > it's very bad for those people I don't get it, are you saying shame is bad for gay people because their guilt is justified? I have to disagree with that, you can talk about the guilt that precedes shame but shame in itself is a corrective tool.

hattmall 3y ago

But why do you think people would / should feel shame with the things you listed just because you don't agree with them? I feel like most of what you listed is the type of people that do feel shame and actually incorporate that into their positions.

_8j50 3y ago
Those were people I strongly believe avoid shame. They cal everything fake news or a conspiracy. Every racist these days goes "i am not a racist? But..." these days lol. They are very proud of their ways and proudly defend their self-deception.
- hattmall 3y ago
  What would fake news and conspiracies have to with shame though. They are rarely in the same vein. There are millions of statements that can be preceded by "I am not racist but" and that's because people use accusations of racism to avoid shame. Pointing out a factual but negative stereotype will have you called racism because the shameful and destructive behavior isn't being acknowledged.

pkdpic 3y ago

I like the distinction between being shamed and feeling shamed. And although as a home owner in a northern california downtown area I couldn't agree more that shame feels absent in a lot of the behavior plaguing our communities in a multitude of capacities, Im reminded of the rumors I hear about how dysfunctional shame-grounded societies like Japan are for those who don't fit into normalized parameters. Anyway its making me wonder, has the US ever been strongly rooted in shame as a non-homogeneous nation? If so when and why did we stop? Growing up in the bay area I feel like I might have a pretty warped view...

saulpw 3y ago

That's the thing about shame, it's NOT your own standards, it's society's (your parents') standards that have been inculcated into you since before you were born. I remember a post by a guy on reddit who was waiting for his g/f in a gas station and tried on some sunglasses on the rack before he realized they were women's sunglasses. and he felt such an immense shock of shame that he almost threw them on the floor. He realized how ridiculous this was (hence the post) but it doesn't matter, that shame runs really deep and takes a long time and a huge personal effort to truly overcome. This is why people have had such a hard time coming to terms with being gay, and that leaks out in all kinds of terrible ways. If society only used shame for truly reprehensible, amoral, antisocial behavior, then sure, the original commenter is making a great point. But shame has been weaponized. Look around you. People are being shamed for being poor, fat, disabled, lazy, oversexed, undersexed, voting wrong, not voting, you name it. So some of us live in a state of constant shame for innocuous behavior and others of us cope by becoming shameless. Even here, you're trying to cast shame upon the shameless, with "refusing to feel shame is embracing evil".

nonethewiser 3y ago
OK, now do pooping on a sidewalk
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I don’t think conflating mental unwellness (which can imply an inability to feel shame) with an absence of shame in otherwise mentally well people does any particular justice to the situation. Mentally well people don’t defecate on streets, at least not under anything less than extreme privation. Those experiencing that privation likely already feel ample shame over it.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    People without shame are mentally unwell.
    - 3y ago

dumpsterdiver 3y ago

> So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... As you say, shame works very well. I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. I'm also baffled as to why you would think that anyone would be ashamed of their beliefs when they were raised to believe those things. It appears that the left side of your argument isn't aware of what the right side just said. Edit: In conclusion, your argument does not hold water. It assumes that your opponents do not think deeply upon contentious matters, and only you and yours do (and so, by your account, anyone who shares your beliefs should never feel shame, because they are simply correct). You are dismissing the beliefs of your opponents without bothering to look into the nuance of any single individual's personal stance, and instead painting half our population as extremists. You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
_8j50 3y ago
> I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. It isn't an assumption, it is my observation. Those examples are types of people that typically (not always) know they are causing harm and even by their own standards their actions are immoral. The nuances of individual's beliefs matter, just not for my brief example. But also, these nuances end up being mental gymanstics created as a result of cognitive dissonance and self deception, to avoid self-confrontation that might result out of shame. > You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. I did nor label all republicans anything but trumpists are either sociopaths or shameless people. Knowing the objectively observable acte of that man, you would have to create so many excuses and claim every fact before you as a conspiracy or "fake news" to avoid feeling shame for supporting him. Republicans as a whole (democrarts too in their own way) are quite the shameless insidious bunch, either willfully ignorant or intentionally malicious to their fellow man. Keep in mind, I am judging people here based on my own beliefs, but my argument is that any reasonable moral system (especially Christianity) that the people i listed hold agrees with my belief. There are things, like cruelty for the sake of it or tormenting children that just don't give you any gray middle ground for excuses so you have to challenge reality and facts to allow your behavior to continue without shame. > You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself. You don't know anything about me but yes, in my own way I have my own mountains of shame, I hope I am not being shameless about anything I did wrong. I am not saving anyone else, I only mentioned those groups you objected to because they cause harm to me or people i care about without feeling shame, I am merely reducing harm and danger to me and mine. Anyone that claims they don't need saving are too busy digging a hole they can't climb out of.

nonethewiser 3y ago

Add sexual degeneracy to the list Someone please explain to me how sexual degeneracy doesn’t exist. Its by definition bad, right? So if its not a problem doesnt that mean it doesn’t exist?

sunderw 3y ago

You are saying > the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. > If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame It implies that the list of people you don't like think they did something wrong but refuse to feel shame about it. To me, all those people are not shameless - in the sense that they don't feel shame _at all_ -, but don't feel shame because they don't feel like they did something wrong (how can you think you're wrong when you don't _believe_ in climate change ?). So shame in itself is not the problem.

_8j50 3y ago
I didn't say I don't like those people, I said i believe they feel guilt yet avoid shame by using flawed reasoning and self deception. Those were just examples i thought would help sell my point to the HN crowd.