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It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not f

• _8j50 3y ago
  Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame. What is more evil than being proud of doing wrong by your own standards? You can debate what is right ir wrong or even what morality is but refusing to feel shame is embracing evil.
  • HWR_14 3y ago
    For someone who leans hard into moral relativism, and specifically calls out moral relativism as the right way to consider shame, you have a very long list of things that shame will solve. What about the trump supporting gun worshiping climate change deniers who don't feel they are wrong? Is "the question not relevant to [them]"? Meanwhile, I used "gay" as an example because a lot of gay people feel shame about it and it's very bad for those people. It's an example of something with shame attached that clearly shouldn't.
    • _8j50 3y ago
      If we can agree that you should feel shame when you do wrong the reasoning with people (and ourselves) about what is wrong and why can have an effect. Right now, because the lack of shame, all sorts if mental gymnastics and alternate realities are fabricated by people for appearances sake. > it's very bad for those people I don't get it, are you saying shame is bad for gay people because their guilt is justified? I have to disagree with that, you can talk about the guilt that precedes shame but shame in itself is a corrective tool.
  • hattmall 3y ago
    But why do you think people would / should feel shame with the things you listed just because you don't agree with them? I feel like most of what you listed is the type of people that do feel shame and actually incorporate that into their positions.
    • _8j50 3y ago
      Those were people I strongly believe avoid shame. They cal everything fake news or a conspiracy. Every racist these days goes "i am not a racist? But..." these days lol. They are very proud of their ways and proudly defend their self-deception.
      • hattmall 3y ago
        What would fake news and conspiracies have to with shame though. They are rarely in the same vein. There are millions of statements that can be preceded by "I am not racist but" and that's because people use accusations of racism to avoid shame. Pointing out a factual but negative stereotype will have you called racism because the shameful and destructive behavior isn't being acknowledged.
  • pkdpic 3y ago
    I like the distinction between being shamed and feeling shamed. And although as a home owner in a northern california downtown area I couldn't agree more that shame feels absent in a lot of the behavior plaguing our communities in a multitude of capacities, Im reminded of the rumors I hear about how dysfunctional shame-grounded societies like Japan are for those who don't fit into normalized parameters. Anyway its making me wonder, has the US ever been strongly rooted in shame as a non-homogeneous nation? If so when and why did we stop? Growing up in the bay area I feel like I might have a pretty warped view...
  • saulpw 3y ago
    That's the thing about shame, it's NOT your own standards, it's society's (your parents') standards that have been inculcated into you since before you were born. I remember a post by a guy on reddit who was waiting for his g/f in a gas station and tried on some sunglasses on the rack before he realized they were women's sunglasses. and he felt such an immense shock of shame that he almost threw them on the floor. He realized how ridiculous this was (hence the post) but it doesn't matter, that shame runs really deep and takes a long time and a huge personal effort to truly overcome. This is why people have had such a hard time coming to terms with being gay, and that leaks out in all kinds of terrible ways. If society only used shame for truly reprehensible, amoral, antisocial behavior, then sure, the original commenter is making a great point. But shame has been weaponized. Look around you. People are being shamed for being poor, fat, disabled, lazy, oversexed, undersexed, voting wrong, not voting, you name it. So some of us live in a state of constant shame for innocuous behavior and others of us cope by becoming shameless. Even here, you're trying to cast shame upon the shameless, with "refusing to feel shame is embracing evil".
    • nonethewiser 3y ago
      OK, now do pooping on a sidewalk
      • woodruffw 3y ago
        I don’t think conflating mental unwellness (which can imply an inability to feel shame) with an absence of shame in otherwise mentally well people does any particular justice to the situation. Mentally well people don’t defecate on streets, at least not under anything less than extreme privation. Those experiencing that privation likely already feel ample shame over it.
        • nonethewiser 3y ago
          People without shame are mentally unwell.
          • 3y ago
  • dumpsterdiver 3y ago
    > So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... As you say, shame works very well. I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. I'm also baffled as to why you would think that anyone would be ashamed of their beliefs when they were raised to believe those things. It appears that the left side of your argument isn't aware of what the right side just said. Edit: In conclusion, your argument does not hold water. It assumes that your opponents do not think deeply upon contentious matters, and only you and yours do (and so, by your account, anyone who shares your beliefs should never feel shame, because they are simply correct). You are dismissing the beliefs of your opponents without bothering to look into the nuance of any single individual's personal stance, and instead painting half our population as extremists. You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • _8j50 3y ago
      > I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism. It isn't an assumption, it is my observation. Those examples are types of people that typically (not always) know they are causing harm and even by their own standards their actions are immoral. The nuances of individual's beliefs matter, just not for my brief example. But also, these nuances end up being mental gymanstics created as a result of cognitive dissonance and self deception, to avoid self-confrontation that might result out of shame. > You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden. I did nor label all republicans anything but trumpists are either sociopaths or shameless people. Knowing the objectively observable acte of that man, you would have to create so many excuses and claim every fact before you as a conspiracy or "fake news" to avoid feeling shame for supporting him. Republicans as a whole (democrarts too in their own way) are quite the shameless insidious bunch, either willfully ignorant or intentionally malicious to their fellow man. Keep in mind, I am judging people here based on my own beliefs, but my argument is that any reasonable moral system (especially Christianity) that the people i listed hold agrees with my belief. There are things, like cruelty for the sake of it or tormenting children that just don't give you any gray middle ground for excuses so you have to challenge reality and facts to allow your behavior to continue without shame. > You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself. You don't know anything about me but yes, in my own way I have my own mountains of shame, I hope I am not being shameless about anything I did wrong. I am not saving anyone else, I only mentioned those groups you objected to because they cause harm to me or people i care about without feeling shame, I am merely reducing harm and danger to me and mine. Anyone that claims they don't need saving are too busy digging a hole they can't climb out of.
  • nonethewiser 3y ago
    Add sexual degeneracy to the list Someone please explain to me how sexual degeneracy doesn’t exist. Its by definition bad, right? So if its not a problem doesnt that mean it doesn’t exist?
  • sunderw 3y ago
    You are saying > the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. > If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame It implies that the list of people you don't like think they did something wrong but refuse to feel shame about it. To me, all those people are not shameless - in the sense that they don't feel shame _at all_ -, but don't feel shame because they don't feel like they did something wrong (how can you think you're wrong when you don't _believe_ in climate change ?). So shame in itself is not the problem.
    • _8j50 3y ago
      I didn't say I don't like those people, I said i believe they feel guilt yet avoid shame by using flawed reasoning and self deception. Those were just examples i thought would help sell my point to the HN crowd.
• graeme 3y ago
  This was in the comment you’re replying to. It covers your reply > Devaluing shame instead of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed As the other comment said, you’re also discussing “being shamed” whereas the original comment is about “feeling shame”. Similar but far from identical.
  • rewmie 3y ago
    > As the other comment said, you’re also discussing “being shamed” whereas the original comment is about “feeling shame”. Similar but far from identical. No, not really. OP clearly advocates for "the need of an authority figure" to force his personal views onto others he feels are lacking in the way of morals. OP's puerile take on "shame" is just a thinly veilled desire to oppress everyone and anyone around them that does not comply with his personal views.
    • grncdr 3y ago
      The OP actually said something nearly opposite to that… > Without shame, many people unfortunately need an authority figure to step in and moderate their behaviour. This is an argument against relying on authority figures to replace the role of shame and implicit social contract. I honestly don’t know how they could have made that more clear than when they continued with this: > It will likely result in people reaching for a paternal “strongman” figure and a subsequent slide into (probably) fascism. Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism.
      • goodpoint 3y ago
        > Again, the argument is that _without_ shame and a shared social contract, the replacement by explicit state authority to moderate harmful behaviors drifts towards fascism. The argument is plain wrong. Fascism and nazism were driven by fear and shame from day one. You can find transcriptions from early talks from the dictators and others.
• babyshake 3y ago
  > I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. This is a strawman argument. I think what we're talking about is shame for having a reckless disregard for others. The way I think of it is we are increasingly living in a world where people are viewing other humans as "NPCs".
  • kenjackson 3y ago
    Is it a strawman? Isn’t that why we had the whole notion of being in the closet, to avoid shame to yourself and family? I get it — let’s have shame for the things that “we” want there to be shame about. I just don’t think there is good consensus on what that is.
    • nonethewiser 3y ago
      We dont need to all agree on what is shameful before agreeing that shamefulness exists. Sure there are differences of opinion but perhaps the worst conclusion to draw is that we shouldnt tolerate shame of anything because we fear shame of 1 specific thing.
      • kenjackson 3y ago
        Honestly I think this whole argument is wrong on its head. The issue is that those strung out on these drugs have no shame regardless of any social norms beyond it. Almost no one I know wants to be on meth. And those I know who are on meth don’t care what you think about most things. This whole discussion about shame plays little role for them.
        • K0balt 3y ago
          That is actually my entire original point. In other cultures I have lived in, addicts moderate their externalities more successfully because of a sense of personal standards / shame. They still care how they are perceived. My whole point is that to a surprising degree of divergence, addict culture in the USA particularly has abandoned those norms in favor of overt caustic social interaction.
• nonethewiser 3y ago
  > It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. > I don't need more people being shamed for being gay Well he never said anything about being gay. Perhaps you’re reading some other concerns into his comment. Imagine two worlds where there is no murder. The first has no murder because no one feels inclined to murder. The second has no murder because there are very strong rules which stop people who feel inclined to do it. Can there possibly be any case made to choose the 2nd over the 1st? Japan is a good example of this principle. Things are a lot more orderly despite a lot weaker enforcement mechanisms.
  • blackoil 3y ago
    It doesn't work selectively, if society can shame you into not taking drugs it will do so everything else non-confirming. In my society not valuing individual freedom girls have/had been shamed into not wearing jeans/skirts, going out for night movie show or even cutting hairs.
    • nonethewiser 3y ago
      First, you are conflating being ashamed with people shaming them thers. Second, it doesnt follow that shaming 1 thing means shaming everything. And surely you can recognize that there exist some things that people should be ashamed of?
      • tehbeard 3y ago
        And surely you can recognise that others can have a very different view of what's shameful, that's at odds with your own rosey view of it as a tool against self destructive behaviour? Various religions and political groups have used and continue to use shame against the lgbt community, using monikers like sinful or perverse to shame them for who they are by grading them against some flawed ideal that they themselves often fail to attain.
      • oopsit 3y ago
        [dead]
• rayiner 3y ago
  What do you mean shame doesn’t work? America is a country that literally can’t reproduce itself without importing people from countries where mothers shame children for not having children in a timely manner. America had 100,000 people die of drug overdoses last year, whereas societies that shame people for drug use have far lower rates of overdoses. Middle eastern and south Asian countries that shame people for pre-marital sex largely managed to avoid the AIDS epidemic that gripped similarly poor countries in other regions. And let’s not forget that we live in a country that became a world power under a social structure that was much more rigid and repressive than the one we have today. Our relative decline in economic importance is probably caused by other economic trends, but it’s pretty wild to say “shame doesn’t work” despite the evidence to the contrary.
  • selimthegrim 3y ago
    If you think AIDS isn’t a problem in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, I have a bridge to sell you.
    • rayiner 3y ago
      Bangladesh has a low AIDS prevalence rate compared to the rest of the world. It actually has a pretty good system for screening and reporting as well, so the statistics are reliable. Overall, Southeast/Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa have the lowest aids prevalence rates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_HIV/AIDS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_HIV/AIDS
  • toofy 3y ago
    > Middle eastern and south Asian countries that shame people for pre-marital sex largely managed to avoid the AIDS epidemic this is absurd, there are plenty of countries who have high levels of shame where aids is still running rampant. and to even imply that we (the us) didn’t have high levels of pre-marital sex in “the good old days when we could shame people” is naive to an extreme. > let’s not forget that we live in a country that became a world power under a social structure that was much more rigid and repressive than the one we have today. if you’re suggesting that i should intentionally live under rigid repression to “be a world power” i say nah, thanks tho. i’d rather we were a middling country where people are free and not living under some authoritarian religious kooks or whatever power would be repressing me “for my own good” because they have deluded themselves that they “know better than we do” what will make us happy.
• foxhill 3y ago
  i don’t think that’s a sensible reading or conclusion from OP’s comment. indeed, your conclusion appears to desire the very thing OP was calling in to question without justification - the existence of that authority figure. why do you think people should be told how to be? remember it’s more frequently been the law that has outlawed being gay, or say, more recently in florida, wearing the wrong thing.
• Takennickname 3y ago
  [flagged]
• DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  > I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. You're introducing these things into a thread about shame and drug usage. It's a complete non-sequitur.