4 ms·

That's a them problem. 30 years ago we knew they'd be trouble if they ever adopted the web en masse and they (and the folks that prey on them) have proven that

That's a them problem. 30 years ago we knew they'd be trouble if they ever adopted the web en masse and they (and the folks that prey on them) have proven that prediction right at every turn.

titzer 3y ago
I couldn't really process your comment because you rounded up to 30. It got me thinking, there was such a huge gulf between 1993 and 1996, at least for me. 1993: derping DOS on a 386; 1996: Windows 95, Quake, dialup, the Web. The pace of change might seem rapid these days, but the 90s were insane fast.
- pbohun 3y ago
  Maybe it's just my perception of things, but the changes back then were exciting and usually made things better for users. Today changes makes my user experience worse, with spyware on top. I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get my drift.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  You assume I'm rounding. Multi-line Worldgroup BBS's with shell-to-network services were a thing before AOL opened the floodgates.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
I mostly agree, but I do think we owe it to the normies to make our part of the web approachable. I don't want to feel like we've fed them to the machine when maybe they wanted out and didn't know how.
- Dan_Sylveste 3y ago
  There's nothing unapproachable about a 100% static site with some server-rendered navigation elements, much like livejournal was in the early 2000s. Much like HN is today. Perfectly 'approachable' even on mobile devices. The only thing that makes sites like this and that 'unapproachable' is stunningly high (genuine, not stat-massaged) levels of functional illiteracy.
  - marcus_holmes 3y ago
    Also that unless you play the stupid SEO games, your approachable site is never going to rank on Google. And as we know, the normies won't even scroll the search page, let alone go to page 2 (or use a better search engine). So they'll only get whatever scammy ridiculous clickbait the SEO agencies have put together for the corporate sites so they can rank for that keyword (and not even relevant keyword - ranking for any keyword is "good" now).
    - Gud 3y ago
      To be honest, I don’t give a shit about google anymore. They don’t want to direct traffic to my website, I’ll get by on word of mouth.
  - underlipton 3y ago
    Part of the promise of the web is democratized expression. So, not just approachable for people accessing content, but for people wanting to share. From their phone or tablet or XR device, even, since those are the computers people spend most of their time with. IME, "deploying" (I hate that word, we need another) from one of those devices is not indicative of functional illiteracy, but the lack of an approachable solution. Even just putting the instructions on a simple webpage instead of in a github readme would be a good first step.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    For people who are accustomed to clicking "new post" there's definitely something unapproachable about mediating the relationship between your DNS registrar and your hosting provider. I'm just saying that if it's gonna be a techies web and a non-techies web we ought to recognize that some of us tend toward toxic elitism and work to counteract it. As much as I enjoy being a Linux snob and a person with Stack Overflow reputation and a pedantic nitpicker on Wikipedia, I don't think that those parts of me, left unchecked at scale, make for a nice community. I want other kinds of specialists around and I don't want them to feel like second class citizens because they don't know their way around a private key (or, if that's unavoidable, I want to have at least tried to teach them).
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > I mostly agree, but I do think we owe it to the normies to make our part of the web approachable. You owe nothing to these traitors who actively sabotage the goals that you deem important.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    They're victims of capitalism gone-astray, not traitors. If we abandon them we'll only have each other to talk to. I don't like us enough to do that. Besides, we have to deal with the consequences of their votes, so it's in our interests to oppose whoever would manipulate them because those manipulators are threats to things that we care about. Things like privacy, and the ability to control the devices that we "own" in ways that contradict the vendor's wishes.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      Your critique narrowly misses the mark. Nothing has gone astray with capitalism. This is the market doing market shit.
prmoustache 3y ago
That is the problem of everyone in fact. Once it is be accepted that "normal peoples" need to ingest advertising ad nauseam and each of their movement is being tracked, people who actually value their privacy and a content web become the abnormal peoples. The author mention the dark web, this is exactly what is happening. If you value your privacy you are now assimilated to criminality and terrorism. See https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/06/05/criminalization-of-encryption-the-8-december-case/ https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/06/05/criminalization-o... “All members contacted adopted a clandestine behaviour, with increased security of means of communication (encrypted applications, Tails operating system, TOR protocol enabling anonymous browsing on the Internet and public wifi)”. “All members of this group were particularly suspicious, only communicating with each other using encrypted applications, in particular Signal, and encrypting their computers and devices […]. "The elements of the investigation that have been communicated to us are staggering. Here are just some of the practices that are being misused as evidence of terrorist behavior6: – the use of applications such as Signal, WhatsApp, Wire, Silence or ProtonMail to encrypt communications ; – using Internet privacy tools such as VPN, Tor or Tails7 ; – protecting ourselves against the exploitation of our personal data by GAFAM via services such as /e/OS, LineageOS, F-Droid ; – encrypting digital media; – organizing and participating in digital hygiene training sessions; – simple possession of technical documentation." Now using encryption and secure messaging with anything but whatsapp and imessage marks you as a potential terrorist, later it will be ad blockers, disabled javascript, not using chrome's WEI and using the smol net/web.

That's a them problem. 30 years ago we knew they'd be trouble if they ever adopted the web en masse and they (and the folks that prey on them) have proven that prediction right at every turn.

titzer 3y ago

I couldn't really process your comment because you rounded up to 30. It got me thinking, there was such a huge gulf between 1993 and 1996, at least for me. 1993: derping DOS on a 386; 1996: Windows 95, Quake, dialup, the Web. The pace of change might seem rapid these days, but the 90s were insane fast.

pbohun 3y ago
Maybe it's just my perception of things, but the changes back then were exciting and usually made things better for users. Today changes makes my user experience worse, with spyware on top. I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get my drift.
forgetfreeman 3y ago
You assume I'm rounding. Multi-line Worldgroup BBS's with shell-to-network services were a thing before AOL opened the floodgates.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

I mostly agree, but I do think we owe it to the normies to make our part of the web approachable. I don't want to feel like we've fed them to the machine when maybe they wanted out and didn't know how.

Dan_Sylveste 3y ago
There's nothing unapproachable about a 100% static site with some server-rendered navigation elements, much like livejournal was in the early 2000s. Much like HN is today. Perfectly 'approachable' even on mobile devices. The only thing that makes sites like this and that 'unapproachable' is stunningly high (genuine, not stat-massaged) levels of functional illiteracy.
- marcus_holmes 3y ago
  Also that unless you play the stupid SEO games, your approachable site is never going to rank on Google. And as we know, the normies won't even scroll the search page, let alone go to page 2 (or use a better search engine). So they'll only get whatever scammy ridiculous clickbait the SEO agencies have put together for the corporate sites so they can rank for that keyword (and not even relevant keyword - ranking for any keyword is "good" now).
  - Gud 3y ago
    To be honest, I don’t give a shit about google anymore. They don’t want to direct traffic to my website, I’ll get by on word of mouth.
- underlipton 3y ago
  Part of the promise of the web is democratized expression. So, not just approachable for people accessing content, but for people wanting to share. From their phone or tablet or XR device, even, since those are the computers people spend most of their time with. IME, "deploying" (I hate that word, we need another) from one of those devices is not indicative of functional illiteracy, but the lack of an approachable solution. Even just putting the instructions on a simple webpage instead of in a github readme would be a good first step.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  For people who are accustomed to clicking "new post" there's definitely something unapproachable about mediating the relationship between your DNS registrar and your hosting provider. I'm just saying that if it's gonna be a techies web and a non-techies web we ought to recognize that some of us tend toward toxic elitism and work to counteract it. As much as I enjoy being a Linux snob and a person with Stack Overflow reputation and a pedantic nitpicker on Wikipedia, I don't think that those parts of me, left unchecked at scale, make for a nice community. I want other kinds of specialists around and I don't want them to feel like second class citizens because they don't know their way around a private key (or, if that's unavoidable, I want to have at least tried to teach them).
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> I mostly agree, but I do think we owe it to the normies to make our part of the web approachable. You owe nothing to these traitors who actively sabotage the goals that you deem important.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  They're victims of capitalism gone-astray, not traitors. If we abandon them we'll only have each other to talk to. I don't like us enough to do that. Besides, we have to deal with the consequences of their votes, so it's in our interests to oppose whoever would manipulate them because those manipulators are threats to things that we care about. Things like privacy, and the ability to control the devices that we "own" in ways that contradict the vendor's wishes.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    Your critique narrowly misses the mark. Nothing has gone astray with capitalism. This is the market doing market shit.

prmoustache 3y ago

That is the problem of everyone in fact. Once it is be accepted that "normal peoples" need to ingest advertising ad nauseam and each of their movement is being tracked, people who actually value their privacy and a content web become the abnormal peoples. The author mention the dark web, this is exactly what is happening. If you value your privacy you are now assimilated to criminality and terrorism. See https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/06/05/criminalization-of-encryption-the-8-december-case/ https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/06/05/criminalization-o... “All members contacted adopted a clandestine behaviour, with increased security of means of communication (encrypted applications, Tails operating system, TOR protocol enabling anonymous browsing on the Internet and public wifi)”. “All members of this group were particularly suspicious, only communicating with each other using encrypted applications, in particular Signal, and encrypting their computers and devices […]. "The elements of the investigation that have been communicated to us are staggering. Here are just some of the practices that are being misused as evidence of terrorist behavior6: – the use of applications such as Signal, WhatsApp, Wire, Silence or ProtonMail to encrypt communications ; – using Internet privacy tools such as VPN, Tor or Tails7 ; – protecting ourselves against the exploitation of our personal data by GAFAM via services such as /e/OS, LineageOS, F-Droid ; – encrypting digital media; – organizing and participating in digital hygiene training sessions; – simple possession of technical documentation." Now using encryption and secure messaging with anything but whatsapp and imessage marks you as a potential terrorist, later it will be ad blockers, disabled javascript, not using chrome's WEI and using the smol net/web.