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It's interesting because the whole ice cap as we know it is around 120k years ago which I don't consider the long ago on human development scale. This also appe

It's interesting because the whole ice cap as we know it is around 120k years ago which I don't consider the long ago on human development scale. This also appears to mean that in the past 120K there wasn't a polar ice cap. I read that as the worst case scenario we should be using for long term planning. This also may help determine how fast the ice was built and how fast it will melt. I'm completely an armchair ponderer.

lumost 3y ago
This will also assuredly fuel some interesting ideas about the origin of the Piri Reis map. A 120k year old ice sheet could mean that humans once lived on Antarctica. It does make one wonder if any ancient sea fearing humans happened to carve a world map into a durable material such as granite which could have survived until the modern historic era. Maybe such a map, or other mythological artifact fueld the Roman idea of Terra Australis Incognita /End rampant unsupported armchair speculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis
- detourdog 3y ago
  The Polynesians used stick maps to identify currents and land masses relative positions. With no evidence I believe navigation cues were built into the vessel. By keeping celestial bodies aligned with marks on the vessel one can achieve a seasonal calendar as well as documentation on how to modify the configuration for the next leg of the journey.
  - contingencies 3y ago
    IIRC the 'maps' made of organic materials were very much a rarity slash teaching aid for the later incarnations of traditional navigation cultures of the Pacific which we have surviving material on. Mostly they used mental maps, and of course the most sensitive instruments available at the time ... at least one example of which was hanging their balls off the edge of the canoe to see if they could detect a temperature shift. A good book on the subject is We: The Navigators though it draws only from one area. Source: Have a Pacific art collection, have been to most of the major museums on the subject, interested in sailing, authored some of the Wikipedia (featured) articles on related watercraft.
    - detourdog 3y ago
      Yes, I would believe that some as fragile as the stick maps was no way to cross an ocean. What I think is interesting is the physical representation of an oral tradition. This is different than writing as employed today.
      - contingencies 3y ago
        Yep. All art is interesting for its relative flattening of multi-dimensional realities in to lesser-dimensional representations. Key concerns for the navigators were signals such as migration patterns, seaweed and other flotsam drift currents, temperatures of said currents, star positions, wave qualities, dominant wind directions, conditions and precipitation and cloud over seasons. These dynamic realities cannot be flattened in to any standard two dimensional representations even today, yet often emanate from or are disturbed by the often-tiny landmasses they would specify as origin, destination or reference points within the navigation problem. In the same way modern navigation uses multi-layered systems like bathymetric maps, local depth sensors, RADAR, GPS and navigation lights to provide orientation and safe passage amongst static and dynamic obstacles, so too the traditional navigators combined layers of sensory input considered too subtle for modern systems yet potentially equally effective in their place and season.
        detourdog 3y ago
        Probably the migratory patterns were as import at as any other reason to travel. What I seem to be noticing is that the ancients used calculus all the time but it was the geometric tools that they used. This gave technology a form. Arabic numerals made tabular data more useful leading to the more number based tools. This seems to have removed the form from technology.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Even without an ice sheet, would antarctica be hospitable? It'd still be cold and a desert I imagine, in darkness through the winter, etc.
renegade-otter 3y ago
Maybe humans become more developed because it got colder? Even on a country and global scale, the south is usually "behind" the north. It's hot, no one wants to do anything. The American south (Arizona, Florida) were tiny and unimportant until air conditioning entered the chat. Phoenix was at 100 thousand people in the fifties. The cold makes us think, the cold make us survive, keeps us on the edge - where we need to be. Respek the cold!
- lukev 3y ago
  This is pretty ahistorical. Most of the world's great civilizations have been from warmer climates. Northern Europe is an exception, not the norm.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    All of the world's "great" civilizations come from places with strong seasonality. The ones that didn't have winters had flooding seasons and dry seasons. Some of them had both. It also doesn't need to be bitterly cold for winter to have an effect on crops. Sumeria and Egypt both had seasonal flooding. Italy and Greece have winters that are cold enough to disrupt agriculture. The Aztecs and Mayans had seasonal floods. The ancient Chinese empires had both. Japan has winters. The list goes on.
- pavlov 3y ago
  On the other hand there’s something to be said for a comfortable climate that leaves people with time to think when the everyday isn’t a constant complex struggle. The Inuits of Greenland and Sami people of Lapland didn’t have Aristotle or Confucius.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    That is only due to writing. I always felt that the high latitude civilizations led to technological development due to the high risk and high solitude.
  - midoridensha 3y ago

lumost 3y ago

This will also assuredly fuel some interesting ideas about the origin of the Piri Reis map. A 120k year old ice sheet could mean that humans once lived on Antarctica. It does make one wonder if any ancient sea fearing humans happened to carve a world map into a durable material such as granite which could have survived until the modern historic era. Maybe such a map, or other mythological artifact fueld the Roman idea of Terra Australis Incognita /End rampant unsupported armchair speculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis

detourdog 3y ago
The Polynesians used stick maps to identify currents and land masses relative positions. With no evidence I believe navigation cues were built into the vessel. By keeping celestial bodies aligned with marks on the vessel one can achieve a seasonal calendar as well as documentation on how to modify the configuration for the next leg of the journey.
- contingencies 3y ago
  IIRC the 'maps' made of organic materials were very much a rarity slash teaching aid for the later incarnations of traditional navigation cultures of the Pacific which we have surviving material on. Mostly they used mental maps, and of course the most sensitive instruments available at the time ... at least one example of which was hanging their balls off the edge of the canoe to see if they could detect a temperature shift. A good book on the subject is We: The Navigators though it draws only from one area. Source: Have a Pacific art collection, have been to most of the major museums on the subject, interested in sailing, authored some of the Wikipedia (featured) articles on related watercraft.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    Yes, I would believe that some as fragile as the stick maps was no way to cross an ocean. What I think is interesting is the physical representation of an oral tradition. This is different than writing as employed today.
    - contingencies 3y ago
      Yep. All art is interesting for its relative flattening of multi-dimensional realities in to lesser-dimensional representations. Key concerns for the navigators were signals such as migration patterns, seaweed and other flotsam drift currents, temperatures of said currents, star positions, wave qualities, dominant wind directions, conditions and precipitation and cloud over seasons. These dynamic realities cannot be flattened in to any standard two dimensional representations even today, yet often emanate from or are disturbed by the often-tiny landmasses they would specify as origin, destination or reference points within the navigation problem. In the same way modern navigation uses multi-layered systems like bathymetric maps, local depth sensors, RADAR, GPS and navigation lights to provide orientation and safe passage amongst static and dynamic obstacles, so too the traditional navigators combined layers of sensory input considered too subtle for modern systems yet potentially equally effective in their place and season.
      - detourdog 3y ago
        Probably the migratory patterns were as import at as any other reason to travel. What I seem to be noticing is that the ancients used calculus all the time but it was the geometric tools that they used. This gave technology a form. Arabic numerals made tabular data more useful leading to the more number based tools. This seems to have removed the form from technology.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Even without an ice sheet, would antarctica be hospitable? It'd still be cold and a desert I imagine, in darkness through the winter, etc.

renegade-otter 3y ago

Maybe humans become more developed because it got colder? Even on a country and global scale, the south is usually "behind" the north. It's hot, no one wants to do anything. The American south (Arizona, Florida) were tiny and unimportant until air conditioning entered the chat. Phoenix was at 100 thousand people in the fifties. The cold makes us think, the cold make us survive, keeps us on the edge - where we need to be. Respek the cold!

lukev 3y ago
This is pretty ahistorical. Most of the world's great civilizations have been from warmer climates. Northern Europe is an exception, not the norm.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  All of the world's "great" civilizations come from places with strong seasonality. The ones that didn't have winters had flooding seasons and dry seasons. Some of them had both. It also doesn't need to be bitterly cold for winter to have an effect on crops. Sumeria and Egypt both had seasonal flooding. Italy and Greece have winters that are cold enough to disrupt agriculture. The Aztecs and Mayans had seasonal floods. The ancient Chinese empires had both. Japan has winters. The list goes on.
pavlov 3y ago
On the other hand there’s something to be said for a comfortable climate that leaves people with time to think when the everyday isn’t a constant complex struggle. The Inuits of Greenland and Sami people of Lapland didn’t have Aristotle or Confucius.
- detourdog 3y ago
  That is only due to writing. I always felt that the high latitude civilizations led to technological development due to the high risk and high solitude.
- midoridensha 3y ago