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You can easily compete if you have a pension liability from workers no longer there by making provision for it at the time that the liability is created.

hibikir 3y ago
Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. One either makes the risk very small, and therefore being a very expensive benefit from the very beginning, or be aggressive, and risk being an underfunded benefit. Either way you slice it, someone providing defined contributions instead is far safer, and can safely outcompete the defined benefit company, as they aren't taking on either side of the risk: The employee is. Note that the costs of trucking are the same either way: Paying for the contribution later is precisely a way to be very competitive now, as the idea of a safe, defined pension that you self fund is much nicer until you see what it takes out of your paycheck.
- WkndTriathlete 3y ago
  > Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. Yup. No less than Warren Buffett, who spent literally his entire career performing risk analyses, could figure out a way to manage defined benefit plan risk, and stated as such in a (now famous) memo in the late 60s or early 70s. Couple that with the number of pension defaults and pension haircuts that have occurred and are likely to continue to occur and 401(k) plans look a lot more attractive, both to the employer and to the employee.
  - eigenvalue 3y ago
    The memo in question: https://davidcoveney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/160301289-Warren-Buffett-Katharine-Graham-Letter.pdf https://davidcoveney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/16030128... It helps a LOT if you also have an investing genius giving you tips on how to allocate the plan assets!
  - nradov 3y ago
    In theory it's possible to make defined benefit pension programs work. In practice they almost always eventually fall apart. The risk is large as to make them essentially financial malpractice. Defined contribution plans such as 401(k) are much safer for workers and taxpayers.
bko 3y ago
You can't really provision a defined benefit 30 years from now. And i def wouldn't trust you to. Not only that you have to ensure that no one else comes along in the next thirty years and messes with it, or the company tanks or a million other things that could go wrong If you provision it you might as well give me a 401k where I have discretion over the funds. Or give me money I can use for my own healthcare in the future. The only people defined pension benefits is shady business managers that don't care and want to get away with cheaper labor costs at the expense of the future which he won't be around to see anyway

hibikir 3y ago

Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. One either makes the risk very small, and therefore being a very expensive benefit from the very beginning, or be aggressive, and risk being an underfunded benefit. Either way you slice it, someone providing defined contributions instead is far safer, and can safely outcompete the defined benefit company, as they aren't taking on either side of the risk: The employee is. Note that the costs of trucking are the same either way: Paying for the contribution later is precisely a way to be very competitive now, as the idea of a safe, defined pension that you self fund is much nicer until you see what it takes out of your paycheck.

WkndTriathlete 3y ago
> Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. Yup. No less than Warren Buffett, who spent literally his entire career performing risk analyses, could figure out a way to manage defined benefit plan risk, and stated as such in a (now famous) memo in the late 60s or early 70s. Couple that with the number of pension defaults and pension haircuts that have occurred and are likely to continue to occur and 401(k) plans look a lot more attractive, both to the employer and to the employee.
- eigenvalue 3y ago
  The memo in question: https://davidcoveney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/160301289-Warren-Buffett-Katharine-Graham-Letter.pdf https://davidcoveney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/16030128... It helps a LOT if you also have an investing genius giving you tips on how to allocate the plan assets!
- nradov 3y ago
  In theory it's possible to make defined benefit pension programs work. In practice they almost always eventually fall apart. The risk is large as to make them essentially financial malpractice. Defined contribution plans such as 401(k) are much safer for workers and taxpayers.

bko 3y ago

You can't really provision a defined benefit 30 years from now. And i def wouldn't trust you to. Not only that you have to ensure that no one else comes along in the next thirty years and messes with it, or the company tanks or a million other things that could go wrong If you provision it you might as well give me a 401k where I have discretion over the funds. Or give me money I can use for my own healthcare in the future. The only people defined pension benefits is shady business managers that don't care and want to get away with cheaper labor costs at the expense of the future which he won't be around to see anyway