5 ms·

Exactly. Pensions might have been practical back in the day when people worked for "the company" for their whole career. But when so many change jobs every 5 ye

Exactly. Pensions might have been practical back in the day when people worked for "the company" for their whole career. But when so many change jobs every 5 years or less, they make no sense.

cguess 3y ago
Not every company is a tech company and not every worker is in their 20's. If you're a truck driver there's a good chance you do work for the same company for your entire career.
- nradov 3y ago
  You've got to be kidding. Trucking has very high employee turnover. Drivers will jump quickly to a competitor that offers slightly higher wages or better scheduling.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Union pensions are typically paid into by companies, but the pension is maintained by the union. Teamsters, IBEWs, etc pensions operate in this manner. You won't work for the same company your entire career, but you're likely to remain in the same field for it. Pensions work just the same as 401ks, but better when properly funded and governed, because your average worker is unsophisticated as it relates to investing. 401ks were a scam foisted on the public as pension replacements, with corporations instead juicing shareholder returns with what was previously pension contributions. If you're a high earner without any life events that would cause you to liquidate your 401k (extended job loss, medical event), congrats! You have won the lottery. You can require pension operators to be fiduciaries and act in the best interest of their members, with penalties if they don't (this exists today, current state). If individuals fuck up their retirement (or could not save enough because of their lifetime wage trajectory), oh well, you're going to die in poverty because the socioeconomic system pulled a fast one on you. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-experiment-has-failed-many-americans-n327321 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-expe... https://www.economicpolicyresearch.org/images/docs/research/retirement_security/401k_Plans_A_Failed_Experiment.pdf https://www.economicpolicyresearch.org/images/docs/research/... https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://web.archive.org/web/20201026175751/https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/317143.html https://web.archive.org/web/20201026175751/https://www.gao.g... https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-401k-balance-age https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-401k-balan... (direct your attention to median balances; assuming 4% withdrawal rate, the high water median 401k balance translates to $185/month in retirement income) https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2023/03/01/fiduciary-duties-of-public-pension-systems-and-registered-investment-advisors/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2023/03/01/fiduciary-duties-...
- nradov 3y ago
  Union pensions were a scam foisted on workers by corrupt union leaders who wanted access to a huge pot of money. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/invisible-enterprise-part-4-most-abused-misused-pension-fund https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/invisibl... https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/states/newsrel/boston101703.html https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/states/newsrel/... I would much rather have my retirement funds in a 401(k). The assets are in my name and can't be arbitrarily taken away.
imglorp 3y ago
> when so many change jobs every 5 years or less That wording implies voluntary. The new loyalty relationship is immensely asymmetric: "the company" holds you by the heart plug (health plan, visa, vesting) while at the same time will boot out a substantial fraction of its workforce, regardless of merit, the moment a quarter turns yellow in some spreadsheet or the M+A pendulum comes around again. There are very few places anyone can spend their whole career at one company even if they wanted to. I've been at this 30 years and I think I've had 10 jobs but only quit once.

Exactly. Pensions might have been practical back in the day when people worked for "the company" for their whole career. But when so many change jobs every 5 years or less, they make no sense.

cguess 3y ago

Not every company is a tech company and not every worker is in their 20's. If you're a truck driver there's a good chance you do work for the same company for your entire career.

nradov 3y ago
You've got to be kidding. Trucking has very high employee turnover. Drivers will jump quickly to a competitor that offers slightly higher wages or better scheduling.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Union pensions are typically paid into by companies, but the pension is maintained by the union. Teamsters, IBEWs, etc pensions operate in this manner. You won't work for the same company your entire career, but you're likely to remain in the same field for it. Pensions work just the same as 401ks, but better when properly funded and governed, because your average worker is unsophisticated as it relates to investing. 401ks were a scam foisted on the public as pension replacements, with corporations instead juicing shareholder returns with what was previously pension contributions. If you're a high earner without any life events that would cause you to liquidate your 401k (extended job loss, medical event), congrats! You have won the lottery. You can require pension operators to be fiduciaries and act in the best interest of their members, with penalties if they don't (this exists today, current state). If individuals fuck up their retirement (or could not save enough because of their lifetime wage trajectory), oh well, you're going to die in poverty because the socioeconomic system pulled a fast one on you. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-experiment-has-failed-many-americans-n327321 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-expe... https://www.economicpolicyresearch.org/images/docs/research/retirement_security/401k_Plans_A_Failed_Experiment.pdf https://www.economicpolicyresearch.org/images/docs/research/... https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://web.archive.org/web/20201026175751/https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/317143.html https://web.archive.org/web/20201026175751/https://www.gao.g... https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-401k-balance-age https://www.empower.com/the-currency/life/average-401k-balan... (direct your attention to median balances; assuming 4% withdrawal rate, the high water median 401k balance translates to $185/month in retirement income) https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2023/03/01/fiduciary-duties-of-public-pension-systems-and-registered-investment-advisors/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2023/03/01/fiduciary-duties-...

nradov 3y ago
Union pensions were a scam foisted on workers by corrupt union leaders who wanted access to a huge pot of money. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/invisible-enterprise-part-4-most-abused-misused-pension-fund https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/invisibl... https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/states/newsrel/boston101703.html https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/states/newsrel/... I would much rather have my retirement funds in a 401(k). The assets are in my name and can't be arbitrarily taken away.

imglorp 3y ago

> when so many change jobs every 5 years or less That wording implies voluntary. The new loyalty relationship is immensely asymmetric: "the company" holds you by the heart plug (health plan, visa, vesting) while at the same time will boot out a substantial fraction of its workforce, regardless of merit, the moment a quarter turns yellow in some spreadsheet or the M+A pendulum comes around again. There are very few places anyone can spend their whole career at one company even if they wanted to. I've been at this 30 years and I think I've had 10 jobs but only quit once.