37 ms·

> Thing is, producing crappy, cookie-cutter, uninspired, overpriced junk that falls apart within 5 years (generously speaking) pays more to the shareholders. Th

> Thing is, producing crappy, cookie-cutter, uninspired, overpriced junk that falls apart within 5 years (generously speaking) pays more to the shareholders. That's how we got from there to here. This summarizes it quite well for me.

vGPU 3y ago
See: Samsung fridges. A huge touchscreen and a water pump/ice maker that will fail in <5 years are standard.
- drcongo 3y ago
  My Samsung fridge is the worst thing I've ever bought.
  - firesteelrain 3y ago
    Agree. Mine lasted 6 years. Replaced with a Whirlpool. Lowe's sales rep told us at the time that the Samsung's were great. I went back 6 years later and told him that we bought a Samsung from him 6 years ago when he told us 6 years later not to buy a Samsung. Needless to say, he was apologetic. Now, my Bosch dishwasher has been solid. No issues.
    - usefulcat 3y ago
      > Now, my Bosch dishwasher has been solid. No issues. Seconded, and also confirmed by an appliance repair tech when I asked him about his opinion of the reliability of our various kitchen appliances.
      - pfdietz 3y ago
        We've had very good experience with Bosch dishwashers.
        brewdad 3y ago
        My only complaint with mine is that, since it doesn't have a heated drying cycle to conserve energy, dishes are sometimes still quite wet when it comes time to put them away. I've found using the recommended rinse agent and putting them away within an hour of the wash cycle finishing helps tremendously. Since the thing runs at only 41dB, I don't mind running it any time of day. EDIT: typos
        pfdietz 3y ago
        Does yours pop the door open when it finishes? Mine does, which lets the dishes dry more after that happens.
    - arethuza 3y ago
      The Bosch dishwasher in our house lasted about 15 years and was fairly repairable - ultimately it got an electrical fault that I wasn't confident fixing so we got a new one and chose another Bosch.
      - julian_t 3y ago
        For us, it's Miele. Washer and dryer are >20 yrs old, and the tech who came to fix a leak said they'll keep going. Dishwasher is about 10 yrs old, also going good. The Panasonic microwave/combo ovens, though, last about 3 years before expiring.
    - soco 3y ago
      My 5 years old fancy double door Bosch refrigerator had every year the touchscreen replaced. That's 6 touchscreens - first ones under warranty, latest out of pocket (and I learned to replace it myself). The bulk of it is still fine, but such details kinda ruin the experience. PS no I'm not hitting it, the warranty technician knew the problem.
      - firesteelrain 3y ago
        Lowe's sales rep said Bosche refrigerator's stink. Whirlpool I have seems to be OK for now (I have all Whirlpool other than dishwasher now in my house)
  - mholm 3y ago
    The worst part is that sometimes less price conscious customers will also get tempted in, because they're the only ones trying to push fridge features forward. The 'beverage center' door with a 64oz pitcher that gets refilled on close, allowing you to quickly pour whatever you want, then stow it back in the door to be refilled, is the greatest feature I've ever experienced on a fridge. It just pains me that if I get the fridge, I know it'll only last a few years.
    - pram 3y ago
      Agreed, I have the automatic pitcher fridge and it’s so convenient I wouldn’t consider one without it now.
  - FeteCommuniste 3y ago
    Interesting. My Samsung TV will soon be 14 years old and still works perfectly. I wonder if there’s a general degradation of their products or it’s a kitchen appliance thing.
    - WorldMaker 3y ago
      Samsung is an especially weird example because they always seem to be pendulum swinging between both poles. Some of their products some years use Tizen as the OS. Tizen is interesting and mostly rock solid, but has fewer aps. Some of their products some years use Android. Everyone knows what Android is, and it has tons of apps, but between Samsung's deep customizations and other factors, Android on Samsung products isn't always the best experience (less likely to be "rock solid", more questions about update support lifetimes, etc). Which products are which each year, from my consumer perspective, seems to be based on some sort of random number generator or other whims of weather in the executive suite that isn't visible from outside. (One visible factor, though, is the variable of how much money Google has thrown at them recently.)
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Samsung appliances are really bad in terms of reliability it seems. Every single dishwasher they make is seemingly designed to have a certain "dirty water" sensor replaced every couple of years. My father has installed like 5 of these things, and they all fail in the exact same way in the exact same time frame. But he doesn't care because he thinks they are really quiet (so what) and he often gets them cheap and "it's a cheap part and an easy fix" (for you it is)
- ljf 3y ago
  But they also do entirely plain units that last well with no 'extras' - their commercial units are also great and easy to repair. But most people want to spend as little as they can so avoid the commercial units.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This is it - high quality stuff is often still made, but it's expensive and/or has other downsides that you really do need to be aware of. For example, commercial equipment is often bullet-proof and long-lived, but it can be louder than you'd want in a home kitchen. Commercial dish washers have no noise insulation, get hot, but can wash dishes so fast they can crack them from the temperature changes. Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation, so when you fire them up you can really warm up a room fast, and they have to be installed away from flammable materials. And people need to be honest about it, too - whenever you buy an appliance new, write the purchase date in indelible ink or spray paint on the back of the unit, because I've had appliances I was sure "lasted barely more than the warranty" and then I realized I'd purchased it 15 years ago.
    - veave 3y ago
      Surely high quality stuff is cheaper than it was 50 years ago when adjusted for inflation.
      - LorenPechtel 3y ago
        Except in many cases it's simply not available.
    - usefulcat 3y ago
      > Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation This seems counter intuitive to me. Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be used a lot more? Seems like the cost of the insulation would be amortized more quickly than in a home kitchen, since a commercial oven is presumably being used a lot more?
- gruez 3y ago
  >See: Samsung fridges. A huge touchscreen and a water pump/ice maker that will fail in <5 years are standard. They still make models that aren't like that[1]. In fact last time I bought a fridge I specifically looked for a model without those features because they're known points of failure and I don't use them. [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-25-cu-ft-33-3-door-french-door-refrigerator-stainless-steel/6529227.p?skuId=6529227 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-25-cu-ft-33-3-door-fren...
  - secabeen 3y ago
    This one is a french door model, which means a complicated double-door latching interface. Single-door is even simpler still, and half the price! You pay almost $700 just for the french door element.
- MisterTea 3y ago
  I saw a Samsung floor model at Home Depot with a frozen screen and Android error message. "Stick a chip in it" needs to die a fast yet horrid and painful death.
- devonbleak 3y ago
  I used to think extended warranties were bullshit. Then I bought the Samsung fridge with the huge touchscreen and the water pump/ice maker.
beezlewax 3y ago
And this should be regulated so it can't happen. So much waste is generated to keep shareholders happy.
Levitz 3y ago
It's also a consequence of constant R&D improvements. We can make appliances that last for 20 years or more, sure, but then when 20 years pass you have an appliance that is 20 years old and doesn't have any of that new stuff that came out in the last 20 years.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Well, I'll be the cranky old man today - I just want a box that keeps my food cold enough not to hurt me. That's really all I need and I imagine all I will need 20 years from now.
  - 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
    You don't even want to tweet from your fridge? Dude.
    - melx 3y ago
      Or self order from that big e-commerce that does tax avoidance. You're missing out.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      You mean Xeet from your fridge?
      - dh2022 3y ago
        (I read this as "exit from your fridge". I LOL'ed - what happened that you got inside the fridge to begin with??? :))
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I read "Xeet" as "shieet"
        callalex 3y ago
        How else would you survive a direct blast from a nuclear bomb? (I am referencing the absolutely absurd scene from Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull)
gok 3y ago
This is going to shock people, but appliance manufacturers in the 1950s also had shareholders.
- hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
  Did shareholders had the same expectations regarding rate of return?
- Qwertious 3y ago
  Over time, investors have become less invested in the companies they invest into. It's a cultural thing, it seems.
jrochkind1 3y ago
I mean, in general, things we buy today are a lot more "affordable" while being lower quality. Googling says the average cost of a refrigerator in 1950 was $250 to $400 (for 10 cubic feet -- a fridge today is 20 to 30 ft^3), which would be $3K to $5K in 2023 dollars. If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- masklinn 3y ago
  > If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure. One of the difficulties is it's become very hard to know if an item is more expensive because: - it's better quality - it's full of bullshit - it's marketing However 3-5k for a fridge is well into "professional kitchen commercial refrigerator / refrigerated cabinet" range. At that price you can get a triple glass-door adjustable shelves wheeled model e.g. https://www.saro-kitchenequipment.com/refrigerators-commercial-refrigerators/refrigerator-with-glass-doors-model-gtk-1530-s-pro/62/3716 https://www.saro-kitchenequipment.com/refrigerators-commerci...
  - maccard 3y ago
    You don't need to go to anywhere near that price to get before you hit a sweet spot. For like $600 including tax one of the biggest retailers in the UK will sell you the most energy efficient fridge on the market with a 5 year guarantee. Like most products, you're reaching diminishing returns at a certain point and that seems to be it as far as I can tell.
    - ska 3y ago
      Isn’t the point of the OP that this “top of the line” fridge has poor ergonomics and features relative to the 70 year old one? If true, that is at least interesting.
    - 3y ago
Night_Thastus 3y ago
I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago) * Extreme competition from companies all over the world * Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all These 3 are why modern appliances are not as reliable. It is not a conspiracy. It is not lazy manufacturers. It is pressure from consumers and government that made things this way. Take HVAC, which is a great example. Regulations have required far greater efficiency. So what happens? You get things like variable-frequency drives. These can slow down the fans in low-load scenarios. However, they also add another failure point. And speaking of fans, many evaporators now use plastic fans instead of metal ones. And guess what? They crack a lot more than the metal ones ever did. But they're lighter and thus more efficient. It's like that with everything. Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones. The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Market For Lemons at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons If you really need someone to blame, then blame the MBAs who buy up quality brands and then sell junk until the reputation is all ground up.
  - jdminhbg 3y ago
    > It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.

vGPU 3y ago

See: Samsung fridges. A huge touchscreen and a water pump/ice maker that will fail in <5 years are standard.

drcongo 3y ago
My Samsung fridge is the worst thing I've ever bought.
- firesteelrain 3y ago
  Agree. Mine lasted 6 years. Replaced with a Whirlpool. Lowe's sales rep told us at the time that the Samsung's were great. I went back 6 years later and told him that we bought a Samsung from him 6 years ago when he told us 6 years later not to buy a Samsung. Needless to say, he was apologetic. Now, my Bosch dishwasher has been solid. No issues.
  - usefulcat 3y ago
    > Now, my Bosch dishwasher has been solid. No issues. Seconded, and also confirmed by an appliance repair tech when I asked him about his opinion of the reliability of our various kitchen appliances.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      We've had very good experience with Bosch dishwashers.
      - brewdad 3y ago
        My only complaint with mine is that, since it doesn't have a heated drying cycle to conserve energy, dishes are sometimes still quite wet when it comes time to put them away. I've found using the recommended rinse agent and putting them away within an hour of the wash cycle finishing helps tremendously. Since the thing runs at only 41dB, I don't mind running it any time of day. EDIT: typos
        pfdietz 3y ago
        Does yours pop the door open when it finishes? Mine does, which lets the dishes dry more after that happens.
  - arethuza 3y ago
    The Bosch dishwasher in our house lasted about 15 years and was fairly repairable - ultimately it got an electrical fault that I wasn't confident fixing so we got a new one and chose another Bosch.
    - julian_t 3y ago
      For us, it's Miele. Washer and dryer are >20 yrs old, and the tech who came to fix a leak said they'll keep going. Dishwasher is about 10 yrs old, also going good. The Panasonic microwave/combo ovens, though, last about 3 years before expiring.
  - soco 3y ago
    My 5 years old fancy double door Bosch refrigerator had every year the touchscreen replaced. That's 6 touchscreens - first ones under warranty, latest out of pocket (and I learned to replace it myself). The bulk of it is still fine, but such details kinda ruin the experience. PS no I'm not hitting it, the warranty technician knew the problem.
    - firesteelrain 3y ago
      Lowe's sales rep said Bosche refrigerator's stink. Whirlpool I have seems to be OK for now (I have all Whirlpool other than dishwasher now in my house)
- mholm 3y ago
  The worst part is that sometimes less price conscious customers will also get tempted in, because they're the only ones trying to push fridge features forward. The 'beverage center' door with a 64oz pitcher that gets refilled on close, allowing you to quickly pour whatever you want, then stow it back in the door to be refilled, is the greatest feature I've ever experienced on a fridge. It just pains me that if I get the fridge, I know it'll only last a few years.
  - pram 3y ago
    Agreed, I have the automatic pitcher fridge and it’s so convenient I wouldn’t consider one without it now.
- FeteCommuniste 3y ago
  Interesting. My Samsung TV will soon be 14 years old and still works perfectly. I wonder if there’s a general degradation of their products or it’s a kitchen appliance thing.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    Samsung is an especially weird example because they always seem to be pendulum swinging between both poles. Some of their products some years use Tizen as the OS. Tizen is interesting and mostly rock solid, but has fewer aps. Some of their products some years use Android. Everyone knows what Android is, and it has tons of apps, but between Samsung's deep customizations and other factors, Android on Samsung products isn't always the best experience (less likely to be "rock solid", more questions about update support lifetimes, etc). Which products are which each year, from my consumer perspective, seems to be based on some sort of random number generator or other whims of weather in the executive suite that isn't visible from outside. (One visible factor, though, is the variable of how much money Google has thrown at them recently.)
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Samsung appliances are really bad in terms of reliability it seems. Every single dishwasher they make is seemingly designed to have a certain "dirty water" sensor replaced every couple of years. My father has installed like 5 of these things, and they all fail in the exact same way in the exact same time frame. But he doesn't care because he thinks they are really quiet (so what) and he often gets them cheap and "it's a cheap part and an easy fix" (for you it is)
ljf 3y ago
But they also do entirely plain units that last well with no 'extras' - their commercial units are also great and easy to repair. But most people want to spend as little as they can so avoid the commercial units.
- bombcar 3y ago
  This is it - high quality stuff is often still made, but it's expensive and/or has other downsides that you really do need to be aware of. For example, commercial equipment is often bullet-proof and long-lived, but it can be louder than you'd want in a home kitchen. Commercial dish washers have no noise insulation, get hot, but can wash dishes so fast they can crack them from the temperature changes. Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation, so when you fire them up you can really warm up a room fast, and they have to be installed away from flammable materials. And people need to be honest about it, too - whenever you buy an appliance new, write the purchase date in indelible ink or spray paint on the back of the unit, because I've had appliances I was sure "lasted barely more than the warranty" and then I realized I'd purchased it 15 years ago.
  - veave 3y ago
    Surely high quality stuff is cheaper than it was 50 years ago when adjusted for inflation.
    - LorenPechtel 3y ago
      Except in many cases it's simply not available.
  - usefulcat 3y ago
    > Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation This seems counter intuitive to me. Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be used a lot more? Seems like the cost of the insulation would be amortized more quickly than in a home kitchen, since a commercial oven is presumably being used a lot more?
gruez 3y ago
>See: Samsung fridges. A huge touchscreen and a water pump/ice maker that will fail in <5 years are standard. They still make models that aren't like that[1]. In fact last time I bought a fridge I specifically looked for a model without those features because they're known points of failure and I don't use them. [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-25-cu-ft-33-3-door-french-door-refrigerator-stainless-steel/6529227.p?skuId=6529227 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-25-cu-ft-33-3-door-fren...
- secabeen 3y ago
  This one is a french door model, which means a complicated double-door latching interface. Single-door is even simpler still, and half the price! You pay almost $700 just for the french door element.
MisterTea 3y ago
I saw a Samsung floor model at Home Depot with a frozen screen and Android error message. "Stick a chip in it" needs to die a fast yet horrid and painful death.
devonbleak 3y ago
I used to think extended warranties were bullshit. Then I bought the Samsung fridge with the huge touchscreen and the water pump/ice maker.

beezlewax 3y ago

And this should be regulated so it can't happen. So much waste is generated to keep shareholders happy.

Levitz 3y ago

It's also a consequence of constant R&D improvements. We can make appliances that last for 20 years or more, sure, but then when 20 years pass you have an appliance that is 20 years old and doesn't have any of that new stuff that came out in the last 20 years.

hotpotamus 3y ago
Well, I'll be the cranky old man today - I just want a box that keeps my food cold enough not to hurt me. That's really all I need and I imagine all I will need 20 years from now.
- 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
  You don't even want to tweet from your fridge? Dude.
  - melx 3y ago
    Or self order from that big e-commerce that does tax avoidance. You're missing out.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    You mean Xeet from your fridge?
    - dh2022 3y ago
      (I read this as "exit from your fridge". I LOL'ed - what happened that you got inside the fridge to begin with??? :))
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I read "Xeet" as "shieet"
      - callalex 3y ago
        How else would you survive a direct blast from a nuclear bomb? (I am referencing the absolutely absurd scene from Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull)

gok 3y ago

This is going to shock people, but appliance manufacturers in the 1950s also had shareholders.

hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
Did shareholders had the same expectations regarding rate of return?
Qwertious 3y ago
Over time, investors have become less invested in the companies they invest into. It's a cultural thing, it seems.

jrochkind1 3y ago

I mean, in general, things we buy today are a lot more "affordable" while being lower quality. Googling says the average cost of a refrigerator in 1950 was $250 to $400 (for 10 cubic feet -- a fridge today is 20 to 30 ft^3), which would be $3K to $5K in 2023 dollars. If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
masklinn 3y ago
> If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure. One of the difficulties is it's become very hard to know if an item is more expensive because: - it's better quality - it's full of bullshit - it's marketing However 3-5k for a fridge is well into "professional kitchen commercial refrigerator / refrigerated cabinet" range. At that price you can get a triple glass-door adjustable shelves wheeled model e.g. https://www.saro-kitchenequipment.com/refrigerators-commercial-refrigerators/refrigerator-with-glass-doors-model-gtk-1530-s-pro/62/3716 https://www.saro-kitchenequipment.com/refrigerators-commerci...
- maccard 3y ago
  You don't need to go to anywhere near that price to get before you hit a sweet spot. For like $600 including tax one of the biggest retailers in the UK will sell you the most energy efficient fridge on the market with a 5 year guarantee. Like most products, you're reaching diminishing returns at a certain point and that seems to be it as far as I can tell.
  - ska 3y ago
    Isn’t the point of the OP that this “top of the line” fridge has poor ergonomics and features relative to the 70 year old one? If true, that is at least interesting.
  - 3y ago

Night_Thastus 3y ago

I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago) * Extreme competition from companies all over the world * Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all These 3 are why modern appliances are not as reliable. It is not a conspiracy. It is not lazy manufacturers. It is pressure from consumers and government that made things this way. Take HVAC, which is a great example. Regulations have required far greater efficiency. So what happens? You get things like variable-frequency drives. These can slow down the fans in low-load scenarios. However, they also add another failure point. And speaking of fans, many evaporators now use plastic fans instead of metal ones. And guess what? They crack a lot more than the metal ones ever did. But they're lighter and thus more efficient. It's like that with everything. Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones. The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true.

Qwertious 3y ago
>* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Market For Lemons at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons If you really need someone to blame, then blame the MBAs who buy up quality brands and then sell junk until the reputation is all ground up.
- jdminhbg 3y ago
  > It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.