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No, you said third party and meant Discord, falsely presuming Discord stores the content of your private conversations in an accessible way, and in this context

by Zetice 3y ago

No, you said third party and meant Discord, falsely presuming Discord stores the content of your private conversations in an accessible way, and in this context in a way that makes it… harder? To publish as documentation (you know, the original topic). And since you’ve apparently never joined an IRC channel before, you don’t get any history of the channel at all, you only get the messages that are sent while you’re in there, and IRC servers don’t log every message to some file. If you knew how these servers worked you’d know how that wouldn’t work very well.

Dylan16807 3y ago
> falsely presuming Discord stores the content of your private conversations in an accessible way What do you mean presuming? I can log in from anywhere and access them, and they're not encrypted with any key I'm the controller of. > and in this context in a way that makes it… harder? To publish as documentation (you know, the original topic) You can't add a bot to an existing direct chat. You can only make new group chats. So you can't export it with a bot. So bots can't solve everything. > And since you’ve apparently never joined an IRC channel before, you don’t get any history of the channel at all, you only get the messages that are sent while you’re in there, and IRC servers don’t log every message to some file. Sure? But I didn't say you got history on IRC. Being a bot is neither necessary nor sufficient for getting every message. The real requirement is staying connected constantly, which is a completely separate issue. > If you knew how these servers worked you’d know how that wouldn’t work very well. It's not 1993 anymore, it would work fine. It's a good chunk of the IRCv3 efforts.
- Zetice 3y ago
  Private conversations are completely irrelevant to this discussion, so not sure why you keep bringing them up. And you did say IRC logged without bots, which it doesn't. You were wrong. And a bot would stay connected to get every message, regardless of the year, and no a "good chunk" of IRCv3 efforts aren't around server logging, that's hilariously incorrect and just shows you're randomly saying shit to try and be right.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    > Private conversations are completely irrelevant to this discussion, so not sure why you keep bringing them up. You said "Literally all of your concerns are 100% solved by adding a log bot to the channels you care about, both on IRC and Discord." to someone that was talking about Discord being bad at logging in general, which to me would include private conversations. > And you did say IRC logged without bots, which it doesn't. You were wrong. I said you can log it without bots. Every standalone client I have ever used did it by default. A client can stay connected all the time. A bot may or may not stay connected all the time. You should not conflate the two. On Discord you need a special bot account to log without breaking the ToS. On IRC you not only don't need a bot account, you can just connect your normal client and be done. > and no a "good chunk" of IRCv3 efforts aren't around server logging, that's hilariously incorrect and just shows you're randomly saying shit to try and be right. Specifically I was saying that in response to "you only get the messages that are sent while you’re in there". https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/read-marker https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/read-marker I'd call this a good chunk. Every time I've seen someone list the features of IRCv3, servers buffering messages to send channel history to clients is one of the features they mention.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      The client is the “bot” , which you know and are intentionally being obtuse. And your links aren’t in any way suggesting the server logs messages, please try again. But none of this is relevant to the original point that you can 100% obtain equal or better outcomes using Discord in all cases for conversation persistence. Complaining about Discord as a replacement to IRC is ignorant and pointless.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        I'm not being obtuse. The biggest problem with discord bots is that you need a completely different kind of account to have a bot, and even worse that account can't join servers normally. You're not allowed to run a logger on your own personal account. Because of that, IRC gives better results in many scenarios. Discord is not equal or better in all cases. If I don't set up a special arrangement with the moderators or break the ToS, all my channel messages are vulnerable to being deleted forever on a moment's notice. And if I get locked out of my account I lose all past private messages.

by Zetice 3y ago

Dylan16807 3y ago

> falsely presuming Discord stores the content of your private conversations in an accessible way What do you mean presuming? I can log in from anywhere and access them, and they're not encrypted with any key I'm the controller of. > and in this context in a way that makes it… harder? To publish as documentation (you know, the original topic) You can't add a bot to an existing direct chat. You can only make new group chats. So you can't export it with a bot. So bots can't solve everything. > And since you’ve apparently never joined an IRC channel before, you don’t get any history of the channel at all, you only get the messages that are sent while you’re in there, and IRC servers don’t log every message to some file. Sure? But I didn't say you got history on IRC. Being a bot is neither necessary nor sufficient for getting every message. The real requirement is staying connected constantly, which is a completely separate issue. > If you knew how these servers worked you’d know how that wouldn’t work very well. It's not 1993 anymore, it would work fine. It's a good chunk of the IRCv3 efforts.

Zetice 3y ago
Private conversations are completely irrelevant to this discussion, so not sure why you keep bringing them up. And you did say IRC logged without bots, which it doesn't. You were wrong. And a bot would stay connected to get every message, regardless of the year, and no a "good chunk" of IRCv3 efforts aren't around server logging, that's hilariously incorrect and just shows you're randomly saying shit to try and be right.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > Private conversations are completely irrelevant to this discussion, so not sure why you keep bringing them up. You said "Literally all of your concerns are 100% solved by adding a log bot to the channels you care about, both on IRC and Discord." to someone that was talking about Discord being bad at logging in general, which to me would include private conversations. > And you did say IRC logged without bots, which it doesn't. You were wrong. I said you can log it without bots. Every standalone client I have ever used did it by default. A client can stay connected all the time. A bot may or may not stay connected all the time. You should not conflate the two. On Discord you need a special bot account to log without breaking the ToS. On IRC you not only don't need a bot account, you can just connect your normal client and be done. > and no a "good chunk" of IRCv3 efforts aren't around server logging, that's hilariously incorrect and just shows you're randomly saying shit to try and be right. Specifically I was saying that in response to "you only get the messages that are sent while you’re in there". https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/read-marker https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/read-marker I'd call this a good chunk. Every time I've seen someone list the features of IRCv3, servers buffering messages to send channel history to clients is one of the features they mention.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    The client is the “bot” , which you know and are intentionally being obtuse. And your links aren’t in any way suggesting the server logs messages, please try again. But none of this is relevant to the original point that you can 100% obtain equal or better outcomes using Discord in all cases for conversation persistence. Complaining about Discord as a replacement to IRC is ignorant and pointless.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      I'm not being obtuse. The biggest problem with discord bots is that you need a completely different kind of account to have a bot, and even worse that account can't join servers normally. You're not allowed to run a logger on your own personal account. Because of that, IRC gives better results in many scenarios. Discord is not equal or better in all cases. If I don't set up a special arrangement with the moderators or break the ToS, all my channel messages are vulnerable to being deleted forever on a moment's notice. And if I get locked out of my account I lose all past private messages.