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I do think this is important as an awareness exercise, however, it is worth noting that a lot of the issues CANNOT be seen unless you actually do bring the whee

I do think this is important as an awareness exercise, however, it is worth noting that a lot of the issues CANNOT be seen unless you actually do bring the wheelchair. I learned this in 2018 when as a student I attended a conference with a fellow disabled student in Chicago. I was responsible for pushing her (she could use her arms but it was faster to navigate the city if one of us pushed). Not all train stations have a wide enough platform for wheelchairs to roll across, so your mobility is limited by which stations you can use for the train, which means walking farther from the station to where you actually wanted to go. Accessible hotel room with a pushbutton door shut too quickly for her to get into the threshold. Thankfully one of us was there to hit the button again each time she needed it reopened, but sometimes you had to physically catch and push the (heavier than normal) door before the button would re-open it. If you were just "thinking" about being a wheelchair user, and not actually trying to navigate this, you would not have a sense of the timing of this door. Another complication was her foot in a cast sticking out. The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. The general attitude toward the disabled, in that environment, is unkind at best. When I was a child (in the US), the science museum in my hometown had an exhibit dedicated to the ADA. You got into a wheelchair and tried to do tasks. It showed how payphones at a certain height are too high to reach, how difficult it would be to go up a ramp with an unapproved slope, etc. I wonder if it's still there, because that was my first foray into thinking this way. The Chicago trip however, basically radicalized me. The article has a reference point of the UK and I don't know what their laws are with regards to accessibility. But it's clear that in both countries public attitudes toward accessibility have a very long way to go. And I'm sure most other countries can say this as well.

adhesive_wombat 3y ago
The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. Maybe better then many places, and the law is allegedly on the right side, but in practice you don't want to rely on anything in particular being accessible without scoping it out first. I used a wheelchair for one day, and after nearly killing myself trying to get over kerb on a slope (from the hospital car park to the hospital), resolved to use under-armpit crutches instead. It's a rare thing that makes you feel privileged to be able to use those painful things! Trains are a good recent example. Most trains are extremely inaccessible, with a foot or two of steps up into the carriage and a large, famously announced, gap. There are wheelchair ramps on platforms but you need to find staff to unlock and use them, or telephone ahead. They're about to remove thousands of ticket offices, so there may soon be no one there. Then when you get onto the station, if the lifts don't work, you'll be stuck on the platform. Assuming they have lifts. My local station doesn't have them at all. If I was in a wheelchair, I'd consider trains a complete no-go zone. Most buses near me are able to "kneel" and have wheelchair ramps, thankfully. Many commercial buildings in cities and suburbs are haphazardly shoved into old housing stock, so it's quite likely that at many places you will have several flights of stairs to deal with. If I'd been in a wheelchair, I'd have been unable to access the office at my first job, for example: four flights of stairs and a step at the door. I sometimes wonder if we as a society will end up actually curing all disabilities before making public things universally accessible.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  > The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. It is certainly far better than here in Germany, as is the awareness. I was shocked visiting the UK just how many disabled people were on TV. Presenters of shows, in almost a half of adverts, etc. were in wheelchairs or had severe physical disability. Here in Germany disabled people are still considered to be undesirables and are hidden from public sight. For whatever reason, I do not even see disabled people in public here, whereas in the UK I see a lot of people moving around with mobility issues. So while it is bad, do not get the impression that it is far better in the European countries that one might expect it to be better in. Certainly the awareness and tolerance is significantly better in the UK.
  - WWLink 3y ago
    > I was shocked visiting the UK just how many disabled people were on TV. Presenters of shows, in almost a half of adverts, etc. were in wheelchairs or had severe physical disability. In the US, I have NEVER seen such a thing. Except maybe in commercials for medicine. or retirement-related things. That would be pretty cool to see.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      Yeah I was pretty shocked. The first one I pointed out my wife was like "yeah? so what?" but on the fourth TV show we saw hosted by someone in a wheelchair it was undeniable
    - defrost 3y ago
      If you poke about on torrents, streaming, using a geo proxy etc. you can likely watch The Last Leg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Leg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Leg a British late-night television humorous talk/sketch show that originally ran alongside the 2012 Summer Paralympics every night following the main coverage on Channel 4. Anchored by Australian comedian Adam Hills and co-hosted by Josh Widdicombe and Alex Brooker, it gives a review of the week's events. Featuring a mix of comedy, guests and Paralympics highlights, the show received strong reviews and regularly pulled in more than a million viewers each night of the Paralympic Games. It has since become a weekly show giving a humorous alternative look back at the week's events. Outside of the UK, the show is broadcast in Hills' native Australia by the ABC ... described by main presenter Adam Hills as "Three guys with four legs talking about the week" https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg
vkou 3y ago
> The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. This is so utterly farcical and disguisting that people will swear until they are black and blue that you are making this up. Of course, some of the people making that argument would, with the shield of being a face in a crowd, without a shred of irony and self-awareness, behave in that exact same way. It's really, really bloody sad.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  The guy who told her to die was definitely on drugs and absolutely wired. Which there are bound to be some characters that way in a large city. The others I can't say, they were basically normal passers-by with no abnormal demeanor prior to being cruel.
  - rcme 3y ago
    I think this has nothing to do with being handicapped and everything to do with the fact that the cta allows citizens to be assaulted every day by allowing crazy people to squat in trains. Plenty of able-bodied people have horror stories.
    - vkou 3y ago
      It's incredibly ironic how you read the actual horror story, and respond by trying to turn this into blaming a pet issue. "It's the bad others, it's not 'normal'[1] people that are behaving poorly." --- [1] Despite the OP explicitly stating that a significant part of the abuse did not come from 'Crazies squatting on trains.'
dustincoates 3y ago
Having children and, thus, a stroller, has given me some small level of insight into what it must be to try and navigate Paris in a wheelchair. I can only think of one, maybe two, Metro stations that I can access with my youngest without carrying him. Many stores I would not be able to enter if I wasn't able to tip the wheels up. Curb cuts are routinely blocked by tourist scooters and anyway people often take up too much of the space on the sidewalk with their vehicles to get through. Add on to the fact that apartment stock must be 95% inaccessible if you're in a wheelchair. It might be why I have only twice seen someone in a wheelchair in my seven years here. My wife and I have discussed before that, as much as we love it here, we'd move out right away if any of us had accessibility needs.
- plufz 3y ago
  Being a swede that sounds surprising. Does France not have regulations for accessibility in public spaces?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Paris is ancient and built on a bunch of hills, there are quite a few places where retrofitting the city to make it more accessible would be easier by rebuilding the whole thing than by making changes and that's not going to happen. Amsterdam has an easier time of it, not quite as old, though old enough that that isn't a big factor in the difference, the good bit is that it is mostly flat (other than the canal bridges, some of which can be pretty steep). Even so there are areas of the inner city that would be hard to navigate in a wheelchair.
    - varjag 3y ago
      Stockholm wasn't exactly built last year either.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        True, but like Amsterdam it is mostly flat, right?
13of40 3y ago
> The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. Dear god. My wife broke her leg about a month ago, and I've been pushing her in a wheelchair when we go out. The spectrum of reactions so far has run from a quick smile to strangers coming up to ask what happened and wish her well. This is in the eastern Seattle suburbs. WTF, people?
- wutbrodo 3y ago
  I was surprised to hear GP's story about the Midwest, but not surprised to hear an anecdote of West Coasters being kinder to strangers than elsewhere. Any one of those stories is worse than anything I've experienced in decades of living in large California cities
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    Culturally Chicago has more in common with NYC than it does it’s Midwest neighbors
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Chicago isn't the midwest, we disavow it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  As I've said in a different reply, the KYS guy was definitely on drugs - his demeanor was abnormal even before he opened his mouth. And every city will have characters of that type. But the other people were just average run-of-the-mill folks from afar who decided to make her day worse.
  - code_duck 3y ago
    A few years ago I was discussing my health problems with a group of vague colleagues and someone told me that because I have Celiac disease and type 1 diabetes, I should kill myself. I don’t even remember who it was who told me that, but now and then I ponder what sort of insensitive attitude one would have to make that suggestion. To me it makes them sound rather inflexible and weak. It’s actually something people say commonly in relation to Celiac, that if they couldn’t eat generic pizza or burgers, they would rather simply die. I wager that if put to the test, these people would not choose to end their lives if they had to be careful and selective about food. It makes me wonder, is eating some junk food really the only reason they have to live?
tehwebguy 3y ago
Brutal. Referring back to this comment the next time folks here are indignant about ADA private right of action.
- pnw 3y ago
  You can be indignant about the weaponization of the ADA by attorneys driven by a profit motive, and still respect the intent of the ADA.
blahedo 3y ago
> in Chicago. ... And the sad thing is, in this respect Chicago is less bad than a lot of other towns and cities in the US and way less bad than many (most?) cities in other countries, including many that are much more progressive than the US. Chicago has been working on curb cuts for years and is in the midst of a years-long quest to upgrade all El (metro/subway) platforms for accessibility, and the ADA---33 years old---has much stronger requirements than, as far as I can tell, even current legislation elsewhere. In Canada, France, Spain, Germany I've seen whole rows of storefronts that are a half-storey up or down from street level, curb cuts are rare, and it's more usual for stores and other business to have steps than not. In other realms of accessibility, I've also noticed a lot more Braille and/or headphone access on ATMs and public kiosks in the US, and fire alarms that are rigged with lights as well as sound. It's not a perfect mechanism, and the US gets a lot of other things wrong, but the ADA is something we got really, really on the right track (and keep improving).
- kortilla 3y ago
  > And the sad thing is, in this respect Chicago is less bad than a lot of other towns and cities in the US Being a “progressive” city isn’t really correlated with being disability friendly. New York is terrible for disabilities. Many walkable and high dense areas are also terrible for them. Like it or not, suburbia with giant parking lots, dedicated disabled spaces, wheelchair ramps, etc is about the best access you can get (assuming you can drive a vehicle and have one).
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Or, new construction in general is more disability friendly. Historic construction isn't, and usually only has to update on renovations.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      Plenty of new construction in New York that is still miserable. Show me a city famous for its dense walkability that’s considered disability friendly.
- 3y ago
ModernMech 3y ago
Yeah I used to do research on robotic wheelchairs, and as part of that I had to use them. Half of the “accessible” doors on campus where not powered, so I had to open them while sitting in the wheelchair. It was impossible to do without holding the door with my legs. And they were these big heavy doors. Then there was the elevator, which could barely fit the wheelchair. You can go in at juuuuust the right angle to get on the lift, then you had to reverse out because there was no room to maneuver inside. I started actually getting claustrophobic. I just couldn’t see how an actual wheelchair-bound person could get into these buildings on a daily basis.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  Why do "accessible" doors always have to weigh so much more than regular doors? The powered ones are extremely difficult to open if the button decides to not work.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It's like trying to turn power steering in your car with the engine off. They're often not designed to "freewheel" so you're dragging the equipment with it. Automatic sliding doors is the way to go, or if you have swing doors then they should be very large and well-hung. The large also contributes to it - a normal door may be 3 feet wide, an accessible one can be 4 or even 5 feet wide.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      > Automatic sliding doors is the way to go, or if you have swing doors then they should be very large and well-hung. There’s a joke here. Someone run with it, I can’t suss it out.
tiffanyg 3y ago
You're hitting on some extremely key insights IMO. Insights grounded in abstract fundamental principles useful all the way from the "hardest" of sciences (physics and even maths, arguably, as a formal science) to the much "softer" (human psychology etc. - where it's far more difficult to be directly quantitative for a whole host of reasons). First, when it comes to engineering, the absolute best test is running the actual system. The "acid test" of a rocket is the launch of that rocket. And, even for all of our "computer-aided engineering" progress over the decades, a wind tunnel is still often a key step and can provide "better" and more reliable info regarding some characteristics of, say, rocket body shape performance, than Pro/ENGINEER or etc. can*. So, the best test when it comes to ADA-related issues is to engineer yourself, to the degree possible, into the position of someone with a "disability". The best work in these areas has involved people tying their limbs down etc. - because, even if you consciously work to not use one arm, say, you'll still involuntarily use it in many ways. For example, it'll naturally come up slightly to help regain balance in some situations. Second, and this is actually, I'd argue, simply a more complete perspective partly covered just above - understanding critically depends on the degree to which one can be in some "position". Often enough, our minds can be adequate. In particular, we can "understand" abstractions that can't necessarily even have obvious "instantiations" - e.g., mathematical abstractions come to mind. There may be "exemplars", but, you can't literally "show" me "the number 3"**. That written, there are many cases where we CAN 'experience' some form of direct 'instantiation' and, for reasons both experiential and even statistical / logical, such an instantiation is pretty well guaranteed to do a better job of producing understanding in our overgrown monkey minds than any amount of sitting around and daydreaming can. So, really, when it comes to the "hard(er)" (e.g., engineering) and "soft(er)" (e.g., psychology - including empathy, say), there's no substitute for "the actual launch" (to circle back to the language of the rocket example, above). * Though, there may be cases / "regimes" that are too difficult [at least practically] to test, even in a wind tunnel, and where, especially these days, CFD modeling can at least give some info and potentially be even entirely adequate) ** Can't wait to see the replies that just say "3", kek
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  Absence of empathy and other-experience - with some political orientations being actively hostile to it - may well be our single biggest cognitive handicap as a species. Many humans seem to be locked inside their skulls in what is - ironically - a very handicapped and limited mobility way.
jacquesm 3y ago
> The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. That's beyond bad, and makes me feel sick.
neilv 3y ago
I live in a high-cost-of-living (HCOLA) metro area that wins national awards/rankings for walkability, but the narrow, obstructed, and often poorly-maintained sidewalks are very often impassable for people in wheelchairs. Even new renovations and widenings, where they put in new, flat sidewalk that's sufficiently wide, the concrete figuratively isn't even dry before they install excessive signposts and random street furniture, again blocking the sidewalk. Then there's the snow&ice, and the inadequate compliance with the rules about who has to shovel what, when, and how. And the property owners that eventually comply, are fighting the plowing from the streets onto the sidewalks. There's even further problems with landscaping, and sometimes poison ivy/oak, growing out from a residential property, to effectively block the narrow square of sidewalk that remains. Not something you want brushing or scraping across your arm or face as you're trying to get through and can't dodge it. Even in good weather I only rarely see people on the sidewalk in wheelchairs or on mobility scooters. That doesn't mean they don't live in town, but that the sidewalks don't let you get far. When I do see them (as a walker), they're usually operating their wheelchair or scooter in the street. A couple times, I've had to help one who was simply stuck in the street. I imagine they don't feel good about it, and feel abandoned. I would've thought the bicyclists would have empathy and solidarity, at least against the cars, but there actually seems to be a higher rate of problematic behavior there, per rider/driver (e.g., ignoring traffic signals at crossings, barreling down narrow sidewalks). And now we're getting dedicated bike paths often at the cost of sidewalks. One of the people in a wheelchair who got stuck in the street, after I helped push him out of it and to the nearby grocery store entrance, he held some device to his neck so that he could say thank you. I imagine that it was implied that this situation sucks -- and I'm thinking: made worse, for no good reason, in an area that can afford to do better -- but he's soldiering through, and doing what he can.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  This kind of thing is why I never really bought into the "Complete streets" philosophy of city planning. So much of it seems like putting extra concrete in a little median for no reason so you can put shrubs in that will die during the next hard freeze, nevermind actually fostering usability. It's like even city planning just wants to do something that looks good for Instagram and leave everyone else to fend for themselves in terms of accessibility. Thanks for sharing this
joker_minmax 3y ago
I don't see an edit button for my comment anymore so I'm just going to add the following thought: remember that no one is immune to disability. One small slip-and-fall, one other careless driver on the road with you, one infection, etc is all it takes and suddenly you've got to struggle through life to make anything work. That is why this is important: it could be you or anyone you know, and happen at any time. Even if you feel invincible.
- everfree 3y ago
  > One small slip-and-fall, one other careless driver on the road with you, one infection, etc is all it takes and suddenly you've got to struggle through life to make anything work. Or just over time. Everyone gets there by their 80s or 90s, if they're lucky.
  - joker_minmax 3y ago
    Yeah but people are sympathetic to old folks. People understand that sometimes old people can walk a short ways and need a wheelchair for a long distance. It's when they see young people in a wheelchair that they make the "faking it" comments because they see the young person walk a few feet outside the wheelchair, and don't apply the same principle. Or the objectification, who is going to catcall an 80 year old woman?
- bombcar 3y ago
  And it doesn't even have to be you; just someone you live with, or help, etc. Having two kids in a stroller could put you almost there (if you have only two kids, get an inline stroller as it's much easier even though longer). Once you're at three and have to get a Zoe you're going to learn quite abit about ADA accessibility. https://zoebaby.com/products/zoe-trio-triple-stroller?variant=31006188404770 https://zoebaby.com/products/zoe-trio-triple-stroller?varian...
somsak2 3y ago
> catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases This happens to people without disabilities quite often too > one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself a homeless person? I don't think these anecdotes are really representative of anything specific to the disability, this has become commonplace in large cities.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  The catcalling tied her disability into the phrasing of what the men said to her. That is why I mentioned it because it wasn't "normal" catcalling. Even if the guy who yelled the KYS comment was a homeless person, clearly not every homeless person does that. I saw the guy walk past dozens of people on the train. When he saw my fellow student in the wheelchair, he stopped in his tracks and turned around to single her out and point when he said it. And these anecdotes do not outweigh the other issues with accessibility myself and others in this thread are noting, particularly how public transportation is lacking in accessibility. I think they serve to show broader negative attitudes toward the disabled that come to the surface.
forrestthewoods 3y ago
> the UK and I don't know what their laws are with regards to accessibility Europe does not give a fuuuuuck about accessibility. It’s something the US is genuinely miles ahead in. Not perfect of course. But Europe is an accessibility nightmare.

adhesive_wombat 3y ago

The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. Maybe better then many places, and the law is allegedly on the right side, but in practice you don't want to rely on anything in particular being accessible without scoping it out first. I used a wheelchair for one day, and after nearly killing myself trying to get over kerb on a slope (from the hospital car park to the hospital), resolved to use under-armpit crutches instead. It's a rare thing that makes you feel privileged to be able to use those painful things! Trains are a good recent example. Most trains are extremely inaccessible, with a foot or two of steps up into the carriage and a large, famously announced, gap. There are wheelchair ramps on platforms but you need to find staff to unlock and use them, or telephone ahead. They're about to remove thousands of ticket offices, so there may soon be no one there. Then when you get onto the station, if the lifts don't work, you'll be stuck on the platform. Assuming they have lifts. My local station doesn't have them at all. If I was in a wheelchair, I'd consider trains a complete no-go zone. Most buses near me are able to "kneel" and have wheelchair ramps, thankfully. Many commercial buildings in cities and suburbs are haphazardly shoved into old housing stock, so it's quite likely that at many places you will have several flights of stairs to deal with. If I'd been in a wheelchair, I'd have been unable to access the office at my first job, for example: four flights of stairs and a step at the door. I sometimes wonder if we as a society will end up actually curing all disabilities before making public things universally accessible.

bowsamic 3y ago
> The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. It is certainly far better than here in Germany, as is the awareness. I was shocked visiting the UK just how many disabled people were on TV. Presenters of shows, in almost a half of adverts, etc. were in wheelchairs or had severe physical disability. Here in Germany disabled people are still considered to be undesirables and are hidden from public sight. For whatever reason, I do not even see disabled people in public here, whereas in the UK I see a lot of people moving around with mobility issues. So while it is bad, do not get the impression that it is far better in the European countries that one might expect it to be better in. Certainly the awareness and tolerance is significantly better in the UK.
- WWLink 3y ago
  > I was shocked visiting the UK just how many disabled people were on TV. Presenters of shows, in almost a half of adverts, etc. were in wheelchairs or had severe physical disability. In the US, I have NEVER seen such a thing. Except maybe in commercials for medicine. or retirement-related things. That would be pretty cool to see.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    Yeah I was pretty shocked. The first one I pointed out my wife was like "yeah? so what?" but on the fourth TV show we saw hosted by someone in a wheelchair it was undeniable
  - defrost 3y ago
    If you poke about on torrents, streaming, using a geo proxy etc. you can likely watch The Last Leg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Leg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Leg a British late-night television humorous talk/sketch show that originally ran alongside the 2012 Summer Paralympics every night following the main coverage on Channel 4. Anchored by Australian comedian Adam Hills and co-hosted by Josh Widdicombe and Alex Brooker, it gives a review of the week's events. Featuring a mix of comedy, guests and Paralympics highlights, the show received strong reviews and regularly pulled in more than a million viewers each night of the Paralympic Games. It has since become a weekly show giving a humorous alternative look back at the week's events. Outside of the UK, the show is broadcast in Hills' native Australia by the ABC ... described by main presenter Adam Hills as "Three guys with four legs talking about the week" https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-last-leg

vkou 3y ago

> The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. This is so utterly farcical and disguisting that people will swear until they are black and blue that you are making this up. Of course, some of the people making that argument would, with the shield of being a face in a crowd, without a shred of irony and self-awareness, behave in that exact same way. It's really, really bloody sad.

joker_minmax 3y ago
The guy who told her to die was definitely on drugs and absolutely wired. Which there are bound to be some characters that way in a large city. The others I can't say, they were basically normal passers-by with no abnormal demeanor prior to being cruel.
- rcme 3y ago
  I think this has nothing to do with being handicapped and everything to do with the fact that the cta allows citizens to be assaulted every day by allowing crazy people to squat in trains. Plenty of able-bodied people have horror stories.
  - vkou 3y ago
    It's incredibly ironic how you read the actual horror story, and respond by trying to turn this into blaming a pet issue. "It's the bad others, it's not 'normal'[1] people that are behaving poorly." --- [1] Despite the OP explicitly stating that a significant part of the abuse did not come from 'Crazies squatting on trains.'

dustincoates 3y ago

Having children and, thus, a stroller, has given me some small level of insight into what it must be to try and navigate Paris in a wheelchair. I can only think of one, maybe two, Metro stations that I can access with my youngest without carrying him. Many stores I would not be able to enter if I wasn't able to tip the wheels up. Curb cuts are routinely blocked by tourist scooters and anyway people often take up too much of the space on the sidewalk with their vehicles to get through. Add on to the fact that apartment stock must be 95% inaccessible if you're in a wheelchair. It might be why I have only twice seen someone in a wheelchair in my seven years here. My wife and I have discussed before that, as much as we love it here, we'd move out right away if any of us had accessibility needs.

plufz 3y ago
Being a swede that sounds surprising. Does France not have regulations for accessibility in public spaces?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Paris is ancient and built on a bunch of hills, there are quite a few places where retrofitting the city to make it more accessible would be easier by rebuilding the whole thing than by making changes and that's not going to happen. Amsterdam has an easier time of it, not quite as old, though old enough that that isn't a big factor in the difference, the good bit is that it is mostly flat (other than the canal bridges, some of which can be pretty steep). Even so there are areas of the inner city that would be hard to navigate in a wheelchair.
  - varjag 3y ago
    Stockholm wasn't exactly built last year either.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      True, but like Amsterdam it is mostly flat, right?

13of40 3y ago

> The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. Dear god. My wife broke her leg about a month ago, and I've been pushing her in a wheelchair when we go out. The spectrum of reactions so far has run from a quick smile to strangers coming up to ask what happened and wish her well. This is in the eastern Seattle suburbs. WTF, people?

wutbrodo 3y ago
I was surprised to hear GP's story about the Midwest, but not surprised to hear an anecdote of West Coasters being kinder to strangers than elsewhere. Any one of those stories is worse than anything I've experienced in decades of living in large California cities
- no_wizard 3y ago
  Culturally Chicago has more in common with NYC than it does it’s Midwest neighbors
- bombcar 3y ago
  Chicago isn't the midwest, we disavow it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
joker_minmax 3y ago
As I've said in a different reply, the KYS guy was definitely on drugs - his demeanor was abnormal even before he opened his mouth. And every city will have characters of that type. But the other people were just average run-of-the-mill folks from afar who decided to make her day worse.
- code_duck 3y ago
  A few years ago I was discussing my health problems with a group of vague colleagues and someone told me that because I have Celiac disease and type 1 diabetes, I should kill myself. I don’t even remember who it was who told me that, but now and then I ponder what sort of insensitive attitude one would have to make that suggestion. To me it makes them sound rather inflexible and weak. It’s actually something people say commonly in relation to Celiac, that if they couldn’t eat generic pizza or burgers, they would rather simply die. I wager that if put to the test, these people would not choose to end their lives if they had to be careful and selective about food. It makes me wonder, is eating some junk food really the only reason they have to live?

tehwebguy 3y ago

Brutal. Referring back to this comment the next time folks here are indignant about ADA private right of action.

pnw 3y ago
You can be indignant about the weaponization of the ADA by attorneys driven by a profit motive, and still respect the intent of the ADA.

blahedo 3y ago

> in Chicago. ... And the sad thing is, in this respect Chicago is less bad than a lot of other towns and cities in the US and way less bad than many (most?) cities in other countries, including many that are much more progressive than the US. Chicago has been working on curb cuts for years and is in the midst of a years-long quest to upgrade all El (metro/subway) platforms for accessibility, and the ADA---33 years old---has much stronger requirements than, as far as I can tell, even current legislation elsewhere. In Canada, France, Spain, Germany I've seen whole rows of storefronts that are a half-storey up or down from street level, curb cuts are rare, and it's more usual for stores and other business to have steps than not. In other realms of accessibility, I've also noticed a lot more Braille and/or headphone access on ATMs and public kiosks in the US, and fire alarms that are rigged with lights as well as sound. It's not a perfect mechanism, and the US gets a lot of other things wrong, but the ADA is something we got really, really on the right track (and keep improving).

kortilla 3y ago
> And the sad thing is, in this respect Chicago is less bad than a lot of other towns and cities in the US Being a “progressive” city isn’t really correlated with being disability friendly. New York is terrible for disabilities. Many walkable and high dense areas are also terrible for them. Like it or not, suburbia with giant parking lots, dedicated disabled spaces, wheelchair ramps, etc is about the best access you can get (assuming you can drive a vehicle and have one).
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Or, new construction in general is more disability friendly. Historic construction isn't, and usually only has to update on renovations.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Plenty of new construction in New York that is still miserable. Show me a city famous for its dense walkability that’s considered disability friendly.
3y ago

ModernMech 3y ago

Yeah I used to do research on robotic wheelchairs, and as part of that I had to use them. Half of the “accessible” doors on campus where not powered, so I had to open them while sitting in the wheelchair. It was impossible to do without holding the door with my legs. And they were these big heavy doors. Then there was the elevator, which could barely fit the wheelchair. You can go in at juuuuust the right angle to get on the lift, then you had to reverse out because there was no room to maneuver inside. I started actually getting claustrophobic. I just couldn’t see how an actual wheelchair-bound person could get into these buildings on a daily basis.

joker_minmax 3y ago
Why do "accessible" doors always have to weigh so much more than regular doors? The powered ones are extremely difficult to open if the button decides to not work.
- bombcar 3y ago
  It's like trying to turn power steering in your car with the engine off. They're often not designed to "freewheel" so you're dragging the equipment with it. Automatic sliding doors is the way to go, or if you have swing doors then they should be very large and well-hung. The large also contributes to it - a normal door may be 3 feet wide, an accessible one can be 4 or even 5 feet wide.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    > Automatic sliding doors is the way to go, or if you have swing doors then they should be very large and well-hung. There’s a joke here. Someone run with it, I can’t suss it out.

tiffanyg 3y ago

You're hitting on some extremely key insights IMO. Insights grounded in abstract fundamental principles useful all the way from the "hardest" of sciences (physics and even maths, arguably, as a formal science) to the much "softer" (human psychology etc. - where it's far more difficult to be directly quantitative for a whole host of reasons). First, when it comes to engineering, the absolute best test is running the actual system. The "acid test" of a rocket is the launch of that rocket. And, even for all of our "computer-aided engineering" progress over the decades, a wind tunnel is still often a key step and can provide "better" and more reliable info regarding some characteristics of, say, rocket body shape performance, than Pro/ENGINEER or etc. can*. So, the best test when it comes to ADA-related issues is to engineer yourself, to the degree possible, into the position of someone with a "disability". The best work in these areas has involved people tying their limbs down etc. - because, even if you consciously work to not use one arm, say, you'll still involuntarily use it in many ways. For example, it'll naturally come up slightly to help regain balance in some situations. Second, and this is actually, I'd argue, simply a more complete perspective partly covered just above - understanding critically depends on the degree to which one can be in some "position". Often enough, our minds can be adequate. In particular, we can "understand" abstractions that can't necessarily even have obvious "instantiations" - e.g., mathematical abstractions come to mind. There may be "exemplars", but, you can't literally "show" me "the number 3"**. That written, there are many cases where we CAN 'experience' some form of direct 'instantiation' and, for reasons both experiential and even statistical / logical, such an instantiation is pretty well guaranteed to do a better job of producing understanding in our overgrown monkey minds than any amount of sitting around and daydreaming can. So, really, when it comes to the "hard(er)" (e.g., engineering) and "soft(er)" (e.g., psychology - including empathy, say), there's no substitute for "the actual launch" (to circle back to the language of the rocket example, above). * Though, there may be cases / "regimes" that are too difficult [at least practically] to test, even in a wind tunnel, and where, especially these days, CFD modeling can at least give some info and potentially be even entirely adequate) ** Can't wait to see the replies that just say "3", kek

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
Absence of empathy and other-experience - with some political orientations being actively hostile to it - may well be our single biggest cognitive handicap as a species. Many humans seem to be locked inside their skulls in what is - ironically - a very handicapped and limited mobility way.

jacquesm 3y ago

neilv 3y ago

I live in a high-cost-of-living (HCOLA) metro area that wins national awards/rankings for walkability, but the narrow, obstructed, and often poorly-maintained sidewalks are very often impassable for people in wheelchairs. Even new renovations and widenings, where they put in new, flat sidewalk that's sufficiently wide, the concrete figuratively isn't even dry before they install excessive signposts and random street furniture, again blocking the sidewalk. Then there's the snow&ice, and the inadequate compliance with the rules about who has to shovel what, when, and how. And the property owners that eventually comply, are fighting the plowing from the streets onto the sidewalks. There's even further problems with landscaping, and sometimes poison ivy/oak, growing out from a residential property, to effectively block the narrow square of sidewalk that remains. Not something you want brushing or scraping across your arm or face as you're trying to get through and can't dodge it. Even in good weather I only rarely see people on the sidewalk in wheelchairs or on mobility scooters. That doesn't mean they don't live in town, but that the sidewalks don't let you get far. When I do see them (as a walker), they're usually operating their wheelchair or scooter in the street. A couple times, I've had to help one who was simply stuck in the street. I imagine they don't feel good about it, and feel abandoned. I would've thought the bicyclists would have empathy and solidarity, at least against the cars, but there actually seems to be a higher rate of problematic behavior there, per rider/driver (e.g., ignoring traffic signals at crossings, barreling down narrow sidewalks). And now we're getting dedicated bike paths often at the cost of sidewalks. One of the people in a wheelchair who got stuck in the street, after I helped push him out of it and to the nearby grocery store entrance, he held some device to his neck so that he could say thank you. I imagine that it was implied that this situation sucks -- and I'm thinking: made worse, for no good reason, in an area that can afford to do better -- but he's soldiering through, and doing what he can.

joker_minmax 3y ago
This kind of thing is why I never really bought into the "Complete streets" philosophy of city planning. So much of it seems like putting extra concrete in a little median for no reason so you can put shrubs in that will die during the next hard freeze, nevermind actually fostering usability. It's like even city planning just wants to do something that looks good for Instagram and leave everyone else to fend for themselves in terms of accessibility. Thanks for sharing this

joker_minmax 3y ago

I don't see an edit button for my comment anymore so I'm just going to add the following thought: remember that no one is immune to disability. One small slip-and-fall, one other careless driver on the road with you, one infection, etc is all it takes and suddenly you've got to struggle through life to make anything work. That is why this is important: it could be you or anyone you know, and happen at any time. Even if you feel invincible.

everfree 3y ago
> One small slip-and-fall, one other careless driver on the road with you, one infection, etc is all it takes and suddenly you've got to struggle through life to make anything work. Or just over time. Everyone gets there by their 80s or 90s, if they're lucky.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  Yeah but people are sympathetic to old folks. People understand that sometimes old people can walk a short ways and need a wheelchair for a long distance. It's when they see young people in a wheelchair that they make the "faking it" comments because they see the young person walk a few feet outside the wheelchair, and don't apply the same principle. Or the objectification, who is going to catcall an 80 year old woman?
bombcar 3y ago
And it doesn't even have to be you; just someone you live with, or help, etc. Having two kids in a stroller could put you almost there (if you have only two kids, get an inline stroller as it's much easier even though longer). Once you're at three and have to get a Zoe you're going to learn quite abit about ADA accessibility. https://zoebaby.com/products/zoe-trio-triple-stroller?variant=31006188404770 https://zoebaby.com/products/zoe-trio-triple-stroller?varian...

somsak2 3y ago

> catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases This happens to people without disabilities quite often too > one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself a homeless person? I don't think these anecdotes are really representative of anything specific to the disability, this has become commonplace in large cities.

joker_minmax 3y ago
The catcalling tied her disability into the phrasing of what the men said to her. That is why I mentioned it because it wasn't "normal" catcalling. Even if the guy who yelled the KYS comment was a homeless person, clearly not every homeless person does that. I saw the guy walk past dozens of people on the train. When he saw my fellow student in the wheelchair, he stopped in his tracks and turned around to single her out and point when he said it. And these anecdotes do not outweigh the other issues with accessibility myself and others in this thread are noting, particularly how public transportation is lacking in accessibility. I think they serve to show broader negative attitudes toward the disabled that come to the surface.

forrestthewoods 3y ago

> the UK and I don't know what their laws are with regards to accessibility Europe does not give a fuuuuuck about accessibility. It’s something the US is genuinely miles ahead in. Not perfect of course. But Europe is an accessibility nightmare.