5 ms·

Literally all of your concerns are 100% solved by adding a log bot to the channels you care about, both on IRC and Discord. I’m beyond sick of the helplessness

by Zetice 3y ago

Literally all of your concerns are 100% solved by adding a log bot to the channels you care about, both on IRC and Discord. I’m beyond sick of the helplessness performative shtick around Discord. This is an ancient problem with obvious solutions. Do better.

eropple 3y ago
You're right, this is a solved problem. On the other hand, mobile access on IRC not being unpleasant isn't and won't be, though, so the search for something better for users will continue. (To their credit, IRCCloud tries. They are the best swing at it I've seen. They aren't Slack-good, let alone Discord-good. The search continues.)
- Zetice 3y ago
  IRC isn’t an app, it’s a protocol. If you don’t like IRC clients as they exist, write or fund one of your own.
  - eropple 3y ago
    I am well aware it isn't "an app". I was using IRC in about 1997 and stopped in about 2017 because other options that were better suited to my needs, and had the people I wanted to talk to, arose. The second part of your response isn't helping you move towards the end state you want. If anything, it's going the other way. Product empathy isn't optional--ask yourself: why would I write or fund an IRC client when I have things that work for me already? Like, this is the Linux-on-the-desktop advocacy all over again. "Your thing doesn't work for me because of X [usually literally X on Linux, but you get the idea], but Y does." "Well, expend time or money to fix X!" Why? You're the one who likes X. You're advocating for it. Why would I fix the thing you like when the thing I use already works? Take the sibling response to yours--I learned something new in seeing https://thelounge.chat https://thelounge.chat, and while I don't want to run software to deal with chat, that was a cool thing to see. I learned something! I'll remember it later! Contrast that to "do it yourself".
    - Zetice 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - eropple 3y ago
        I did "solve the problem". I use Slack and Discord to talk to the cohorts who used to be on IRC. Your behavior in this thread is really strange. Discord's a fine tool. So is Slack. I have nothing to fix, and my posts in this thread have been explaining why for me they're fit for purpose when IRC isn't. Why would I "do something about" a situation that isn't a problem for me?
        Zetice 3y ago
        Then why bring up IRC’s lack of a “pleasant” app? Just seems like a problem you can and should solve for yourself, but is otherwise wholly unrelated to the protocol. One doesn’t complain about http because the mobile browser options aren’t to one’s liking.
        boredtofears 3y ago
        You don't have to take responsibility for fixing something just because you criticized it. Fixating on the term used is a tad disingenuous. I think most people reading hacker news understands that the IRC ecosystem is being referenced here - not the protocol itself. IRC has been around 30+ years and it still doesn't have any great clients. If you wanted to build a featureful chat client IRC wouldn't even be a good choice because there is so many things missing from the spec.
        Zetice 3y ago
        Sorry but this passive voice over a completely open system is intolerable. Fix it yourself. It annoys me.
        eropple 3y ago
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Why is this getting downvoted? The spirit of what's argued is right in line with the spirit of free protocols, open source software, and venture capital funding for new challenges.
    - eropple 3y ago
      Generally speaking, when somebody wants other people to adopt a practice, they make sure that practice is fit-for-purpose themselves rather than expecting the people to whom they advocate to stop using things that are fit for purpose, then adopt something unfit-for-purpose, and then fix it. Your implication that lots of open source communities have historically not done that is absolutely true. But also it's why people don't want to talk to them much, too.
- rascul 3y ago
  You might check out The Lounge. https://thelounge.chat https://thelounge.chat
  - eropple 3y ago
    Thank you for linking this--this is cool! I'm not in a place where I want to run software to solve the problem of chat, but this looks like a really good One Of Those for those so inclined, and I'm going to keep it in my back pocket for the future.
Dylan16807 3y ago
Among other things, there's no way to add a log bot to private messages.
- Zetice 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Huh? Supposed to what? I was just listing a way that Discord is worse than an IRC client, in a way that you can't solve with a log bot. You're imagining whatever standard you think I'm setting. Anyway, the main "other things" are needing direct moderator permission and button-pressing on every server you want to join your log bot to.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      Discord isn’t worse than an IRC client because it doesn’t log private chats, it’s superior because it doesn’t log private chats. And if you thing your “other things” are unique to Discord you’re kidding yourself.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        > Discord isn’t worse than an IRC client because it doesn’t log private chats, it’s superior because it doesn’t log private chats. I would say that having it stored indefinitely on third party servers, but not stored on my local computer, is the worst of both worlds. > And if you thing your “other things” are unique to Discord you’re kidding yourself. Some IRC channels may have the same policies around bots, but IRC doesn't force you to use a bot to have logs.
        Zetice 3y ago
        You have no clue how Discord stores private messages, and IRC absolutely forces you to use a bot to have logs.
stjohnswarts 3y ago
not when the channel shuts down, unless discord introduces the ability to do a complete download of all the channel's old discussions

by Zetice 3y ago

eropple 3y ago

You're right, this is a solved problem. On the other hand, mobile access on IRC not being unpleasant isn't and won't be, though, so the search for something better for users will continue. (To their credit, IRCCloud tries. They are the best swing at it I've seen. They aren't Slack-good, let alone Discord-good. The search continues.)

Zetice 3y ago
IRC isn’t an app, it’s a protocol. If you don’t like IRC clients as they exist, write or fund one of your own.
- eropple 3y ago
  I am well aware it isn't "an app". I was using IRC in about 1997 and stopped in about 2017 because other options that were better suited to my needs, and had the people I wanted to talk to, arose. The second part of your response isn't helping you move towards the end state you want. If anything, it's going the other way. Product empathy isn't optional--ask yourself: why would I write or fund an IRC client when I have things that work for me already? Like, this is the Linux-on-the-desktop advocacy all over again. "Your thing doesn't work for me because of X [usually literally X on Linux, but you get the idea], but Y does." "Well, expend time or money to fix X!" Why? You're the one who likes X. You're advocating for it. Why would I fix the thing you like when the thing I use already works? Take the sibling response to yours--I learned something new in seeing https://thelounge.chat https://thelounge.chat, and while I don't want to run software to deal with chat, that was a cool thing to see. I learned something! I'll remember it later! Contrast that to "do it yourself".
  - Zetice 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - eropple 3y ago
      I did "solve the problem". I use Slack and Discord to talk to the cohorts who used to be on IRC. Your behavior in this thread is really strange. Discord's a fine tool. So is Slack. I have nothing to fix, and my posts in this thread have been explaining why for me they're fit for purpose when IRC isn't. Why would I "do something about" a situation that isn't a problem for me?
      - Zetice 3y ago
        Then why bring up IRC’s lack of a “pleasant” app? Just seems like a problem you can and should solve for yourself, but is otherwise wholly unrelated to the protocol. One doesn’t complain about http because the mobile browser options aren’t to one’s liking.
        boredtofears 3y ago
        You don't have to take responsibility for fixing something just because you criticized it. Fixating on the term used is a tad disingenuous. I think most people reading hacker news understands that the IRC ecosystem is being referenced here - not the protocol itself. IRC has been around 30+ years and it still doesn't have any great clients. If you wanted to build a featureful chat client IRC wouldn't even be a good choice because there is so many things missing from the spec.
        Zetice 3y ago
        Sorry but this passive voice over a completely open system is intolerable. Fix it yourself. It annoys me.
        eropple 3y ago
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Why is this getting downvoted? The spirit of what's argued is right in line with the spirit of free protocols, open source software, and venture capital funding for new challenges.
  - eropple 3y ago
    Generally speaking, when somebody wants other people to adopt a practice, they make sure that practice is fit-for-purpose themselves rather than expecting the people to whom they advocate to stop using things that are fit for purpose, then adopt something unfit-for-purpose, and then fix it. Your implication that lots of open source communities have historically not done that is absolutely true. But also it's why people don't want to talk to them much, too.
rascul 3y ago
You might check out The Lounge. https://thelounge.chat https://thelounge.chat
- eropple 3y ago
  Thank you for linking this--this is cool! I'm not in a place where I want to run software to solve the problem of chat, but this looks like a really good One Of Those for those so inclined, and I'm going to keep it in my back pocket for the future.

Dylan16807 3y ago

Among other things, there's no way to add a log bot to private messages.

Zetice 3y ago
[flagged]
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  Huh? Supposed to what? I was just listing a way that Discord is worse than an IRC client, in a way that you can't solve with a log bot. You're imagining whatever standard you think I'm setting. Anyway, the main "other things" are needing direct moderator permission and button-pressing on every server you want to join your log bot to.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    Discord isn’t worse than an IRC client because it doesn’t log private chats, it’s superior because it doesn’t log private chats. And if you thing your “other things” are unique to Discord you’re kidding yourself.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > Discord isn’t worse than an IRC client because it doesn’t log private chats, it’s superior because it doesn’t log private chats. I would say that having it stored indefinitely on third party servers, but not stored on my local computer, is the worst of both worlds. > And if you thing your “other things” are unique to Discord you’re kidding yourself. Some IRC channels may have the same policies around bots, but IRC doesn't force you to use a bot to have logs.
      - Zetice 3y ago
        You have no clue how Discord stores private messages, and IRC absolutely forces you to use a bot to have logs.

stjohnswarts 3y ago

not when the channel shuts down, unless discord introduces the ability to do a complete download of all the channel's old discussions