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You can still let it. Help us end prison.

by giraffe_lady 3y ago

networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
fourseventy 3y ago
[flagged]
- williamdclt 3y ago
  I don’t think that’s the most charitable interpretation of the parent’s comment
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    It's certainly a harsh response, but I legitimately don't know what "end prison" is supposed to mean. Even if you use lighter measures for most crimes, focus on rehab, and get rid of cells, prison's still prison. How are you going to lock up nobody?
    - lexlash 3y ago
      Harsh? It’s a useless, knee jerk, response designed to excuse people from thinking about alternatives. Other countries seem to manage with a vanishingly smaller percentage of prisoners and without the dehumanization the US routinely employs. So yes, maybe try ending it; it’s not clear the other extreme is any worse and it’s certainly cheaper. One of those “just build permanent houses” moments.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        > Harsh? It’s a useless, knee jerk, response. It's no more useless than the post it's responding to. > it’s not clear the other extreme is any worse What a bad way to plan things.
- cpursley 3y ago
  What percentage of prisoners fit that description? Or even that if violent offenders? I think few people would argue that those classes of law breakers are allowed off the hook.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
_5ahg 3y ago
You can recognise a system is broken without making things even worse. Critique of the status quo is easy, solutions are hard. There are more solutions than total abolition.
- teekert 3y ago
  For anyone interested, Humankind by Rutger Bregman goes into this very topic (among others). It is a nice book and recognizes the nuance while suggesting improvements, mainly by looking at other countries and systems.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- lexlash 3y ago
  Support of the status quo is even easier. Did you have a point beyond that? The US - which is the topic of this thread - has a larger incarcerated population than anywhere else by absolutes and percentages; by a rather high number. Other countries seem to do just fine and spend a lot less in the process. So - similar to ending cash bail and various decriminalizing efforts - it’s not clear that prison abolition would actually be net negative to “public safety”.
  - _5ahg 3y ago
    I'm not supporting the status quo. What I'm saying is that when we change things we need to have some careful analysis and precise implementation to ensure things are actually improving for the better, and that preferably of the possible alternatives we aren't just choosing a better one, we're choosing the best one. The status quo being awful (and I agree - the US prison system seems pretty awful) does not automatically make all proposed solutions a good (or the best) idea.
    - lexlash 3y ago
      I am not opposed to analysis; there is, however, a point where existing system is so irredeemably corrosive that measured and conservative approaches just mean excess harm. It certainly makes all solutions proposed worth considering; it’s hard to imagine a much worse answer to public safety than the US prison. We didn’t land on the current extreme via well-reasoned debate and there’s a permanent human cost to allowing it to continue. Waiting for the best solution is a luxury and it’s easy for the average commenter here - statistically not affected - to do exactly that. > I'm not supporting the status quo. I believe that you do not intend to, but arguments against change inherently support the current state of things, and it’s quite hard to parse out intent and effect at 4am, so apologies there.

You can still let it. Help us end prison.

networkchad 3y ago

[dead]

fourseventy 3y ago

[flagged]

williamdclt 3y ago
I don’t think that’s the most charitable interpretation of the parent’s comment
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  It's certainly a harsh response, but I legitimately don't know what "end prison" is supposed to mean. Even if you use lighter measures for most crimes, focus on rehab, and get rid of cells, prison's still prison. How are you going to lock up nobody?
  - lexlash 3y ago
    Harsh? It’s a useless, knee jerk, response designed to excuse people from thinking about alternatives. Other countries seem to manage with a vanishingly smaller percentage of prisoners and without the dehumanization the US routinely employs. So yes, maybe try ending it; it’s not clear the other extreme is any worse and it’s certainly cheaper. One of those “just build permanent houses” moments.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > Harsh? It’s a useless, knee jerk, response. It's no more useless than the post it's responding to. > it’s not clear the other extreme is any worse What a bad way to plan things.
cpursley 3y ago
What percentage of prisoners fit that description? Or even that if violent offenders? I think few people would argue that those classes of law breakers are allowed off the hook.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

_5ahg 3y ago

You can recognise a system is broken without making things even worse. Critique of the status quo is easy, solutions are hard. There are more solutions than total abolition.

teekert 3y ago
For anyone interested, Humankind by Rutger Bregman goes into this very topic (among others). It is a nice book and recognizes the nuance while suggesting improvements, mainly by looking at other countries and systems.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lexlash 3y ago
Support of the status quo is even easier. Did you have a point beyond that? The US - which is the topic of this thread - has a larger incarcerated population than anywhere else by absolutes and percentages; by a rather high number. Other countries seem to do just fine and spend a lot less in the process. So - similar to ending cash bail and various decriminalizing efforts - it’s not clear that prison abolition would actually be net negative to “public safety”.
- _5ahg 3y ago
  I'm not supporting the status quo. What I'm saying is that when we change things we need to have some careful analysis and precise implementation to ensure things are actually improving for the better, and that preferably of the possible alternatives we aren't just choosing a better one, we're choosing the best one. The status quo being awful (and I agree - the US prison system seems pretty awful) does not automatically make all proposed solutions a good (or the best) idea.
  - lexlash 3y ago
    I am not opposed to analysis; there is, however, a point where existing system is so irredeemably corrosive that measured and conservative approaches just mean excess harm. It certainly makes all solutions proposed worth considering; it’s hard to imagine a much worse answer to public safety than the US prison. We didn’t land on the current extreme via well-reasoned debate and there’s a permanent human cost to allowing it to continue. Waiting for the best solution is a luxury and it’s easy for the average commenter here - statistically not affected - to do exactly that. > I'm not supporting the status quo. I believe that you do not intend to, but arguments against change inherently support the current state of things, and it’s quite hard to parse out intent and effect at 4am, so apologies there.