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This is a prime example of why biodiversity is so important, and in my opinion, why protecting it should be a top priority for all hackers. Genetic information

by myshpa 3y ago

This is a prime example of why biodiversity is so important, and in my opinion, why protecting it should be a top priority for all hackers. Genetic information is code - code that has been written over millions of years. Nature is full of such wonderful programs and hacks. We don't yet know how to write even the simplest one, or even know about most of them. Yet, we're turning a blind eye to the current destruction of biodiversity and not thinking twice about it. I don't understand why the Hacker News community isn't more interested in biodiversity loss, or why articles about climate change and biodiversity loss are not welcome here. We're in the sixth mass extinction event, defined as a 75% loss of species, primarily caused so far by animal agriculture or, more precisely, by our food preferences. This situation is soon to be worsened by climate change. But when someone mentions veganism around here, all those hackers flag his post to oblivion. What makes all those javascript frameworks so important, and the code created by nature unimportant?

kdmccormick 3y ago
Well said. I had not made the parallel between genetic diversity and preservation of code, but now that you've put it like that it makes so much sense. I mean, I'd always cared about conservation, but this gives me yet another way to understand and explain its importance.
Shosty123 3y ago
Never thought about it like that. Thanks for sharing that perspective.
positus 3y ago
Genuinely curious, since almost all (all?) of your submissions to HN seem to involve the climate in some way: what do you do for a living? What causes you to gravitate towards these types of articles and discussions?
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- myshpa 3y ago
  > What causes you to gravitate towards these types of articles and discussions https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biologys-beloved-amphibian-the-axolotl-is-racing-toward-extinction1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biologys-beloved-... Biology's Beloved Amphibian - the Axolotl - Is Racing toward Extinction https://daily.jstor.org/the-race-to-save-the-axolotl/ https://daily.jstor.org/the-race-to-save-the-axolotl/ The Race to Save the Axolotl - when an axolotl loses a limb, it regrows, and nary a scar remains. But this incredible creature is on the brink of extinction. The first robust count of axolotls in 1998 estimated that around 6,000 animals lived in each square kilometer ... in 2015, he only found 35 per square kilometer. The axolotl is the world’s the oldest self-sustaining laboratory animal population. But it is unknown how long researchers will still be able to work with the axolotl: Like many lab animals, they are highly inbred, which could threaten their survival. To measure how small a gene pool is, scientists use an “inbreeding coefficient:” identical twins have an inbreeding coefficient of 100, completely unrelated individuals a coefficient of zero. For healthy growth, a captive population should have a coefficient of 12.5 at maximum. The notoriously inbred Spanish Habsburgs had a coefficient of 20; the coefficient for axolotls is 35.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Axolotl are going extinct because the tiny extent of their natural habitat is underneath what is now Mexico City. There are 10 million people living on top of their native environment, veganism does nothing to address this.
    - Grimburger 3y ago
      The immediate jump to food preferences in this thread is strange, it's very evident that changing diet, modes of transport and a plethora of other things we argue about doing is a rounding error compared to simply having one less child, overpopulation is the root cause of all this yet an incredibly taboo issue to discuss. https://i.cbc.ca/1.4204289.1499983814!/fileImage/httpImage/emissions-choices.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.4204289.1499983814!/fileImage/httpImage/e... Countries should work towards stabilising their populations first otherwise it's all for naught.
rollcat 3y ago
I think it's a mix of groupthink and "someone else's problem". It's hard to break through an echo chamber and it's hard to accept something that inconveniences you. (I would assume the parts of the world where most of HN's audience resides are not going to be impacted by climate change as soon and as hard as many others.) I do believe HN is full of intelligent and compassionate people. Perhaps it's compassion fatigue? (Too many horrible things happening, can I even make a difference through my individual actions?) Maybe we just needed you to make a good analogy, to illustrate the problem?
worldsayshi 3y ago
This times a thousand. The amount of unique information that is encoded in any single species likely dwarfs the collective knowledge of mankind.
dilawar 3y ago
I feel helpless and very gloomy when I think about biodiversity loss and climate change. I even fast forward David Attenborough documentries when he talks about these things. Sometimes "its all going to hell but we are going in together" thought is more comforting than thinking about my own and everyone else apathy. Thanks for making "code written by nature" comment. Knuth also agrees that bioinformatics has many more fantastic problems than computer science because its much much older. I was in awe of planeria when I first saw it regenerating from its parts first time.
andersa 3y ago
> But when someone mentions veganism around here, all those hackers flag his post to oblivion. Veganism will never save us there. It's because meat tastes good. That's literally all there is to why we aren't all vegan. Humans will not voluntarily give up one of the nice things they currently have access to and enjoy. Nobody cares about delayed indirect consequences on a planetary scale. Our brains aren't wired to think that way, since it provides no instant gratification. If someone came up with a novel way to create a meat-like material that actually tastes as good, without involving inefficient animal farming, it will be a much more successful approach at solving this problem.
- zacmps 3y ago
  > Humans will not voluntarily give up one of the nice things they currently have access to and enjoy Plenty of people have, somewhat nullifying your comment.
  - andersa 3y ago
    Barely 1% of the world's population have, I think the point stands.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      Yes, because for decades or longer, meat has been associated with affluence and a higher standard of living. There is no country in the world without meat & dairy subsidies. On a finite planet with 8 billion people, to feed everyone the "western diet," we would need 2-5 such planets. It's simply not longer possible. https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ Veganism grows very fast, though. It's already starting to influence meat and dairy sales, enough to make some producers very nervous (wood milk ads, for example). --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU The Secret Reason We Eat Meat - Dr. Melanie Joy https://www.plantproteins.co/vegan-plant-based-diet-statistics/ https://www.plantproteins.co/vegan-plant-based-diet-statisti... As many as 6% of U.S. consumers say they are vegan — a 6x (500%) increase compared to just 1% in 2014. U.S. retail sales of plant-based foods have increased 11 percent from 2018 to 2019, hitting a plant-based market value to $4.5 billion.
deleted 3y ago
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DoreenMichele 3y ago
Genetic information is code Have an upvote for that line. Me like. It's how I think of it.
raincole 3y ago
Hacker News is, uh, a name. I don't think most people here are "hackers", nor they identify themselves as ones. Most people are just employees in FAAG or some VC-funded firms. And to be honest I don't even think most people here are informed enough to discuss biodiversity. I definitely am not.
XorNot 3y ago
Veganism has nothing to do with biodiversity loss though. Land clearing happens for ranching purposes, but is also happens for peanuts, coconut oil and all sorts of other products. Rice[1] is a cash crop associated with land clearing. For example a practical sustainable diet for the world would be much more efficient if it included goat milk and meat, because goats can subsist off of marginal lands and foods which humans can't. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/44127803 https://www.jstor.org/stable/44127803
- myshpa 3y ago
  > Land clearing happens for ranching purposes, but is also happens for peanuts, coconut oil and all sorts of other products Ranching takes 80% of the agriculture land, 50+% pastures were forested in the past. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#beef-soy-and-palm-oil-are-responsible-for-60-of-tropical-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#beef-soy... Combined, beef and oilseeds account for nearly 60% of deforestation (majority of oilseeds are mostly used for animal feed). > goats ... can subsist off of marginal lands and foods which humans can't That's the typical argument of animal ag farmers. That land should be rewilded and afforested, to enable return of the wildlife. Goats and grazing are a recipe for desertification: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0959683616670470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09596836166704... Blame it on the goats? Desertification in the Near East during the Holocene https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate-disaster-and-youre-paying-for-it/ https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate... Cattle grazing is a climate disaster, and you’re paying for it https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-co... Grazed and Confused? > Veganism has nothing to do with biodiversity loss though https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://phys.org/news/2023-04-climate-crisis-biodiversity-approached.html https://phys.org/news/2023-04-climate-crisis-biodiversity-ap... The climate crisis and biodiversity crisis can't be approached separately, says study https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287498/meat-wildlife-biodiversity-species-plantbased https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287498/meat-wildlife-bi... The way we eat could lead to habitat loss for 17,000 species by 2050 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 In terms of carbon sequestration and dealing w/ climate, it is clear that agricultural land use(especially land used for animal feed) is the largest barrier to ecosystem restoration. Potential for carbon sequestration is enormous (literally enough for the entire 1.5C carbon budget) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

by myshpa 3y ago

kdmccormick 3y ago

Well said. I had not made the parallel between genetic diversity and preservation of code, but now that you've put it like that it makes so much sense. I mean, I'd always cared about conservation, but this gives me yet another way to understand and explain its importance.

Shosty123 3y ago

Never thought about it like that. Thanks for sharing that perspective.

positus 3y ago

Genuinely curious, since almost all (all?) of your submissions to HN seem to involve the climate in some way: what do you do for a living? What causes you to gravitate towards these types of articles and discussions?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
myshpa 3y ago
> What causes you to gravitate towards these types of articles and discussions https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biologys-beloved-amphibian-the-axolotl-is-racing-toward-extinction1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biologys-beloved-... Biology's Beloved Amphibian - the Axolotl - Is Racing toward Extinction https://daily.jstor.org/the-race-to-save-the-axolotl/ https://daily.jstor.org/the-race-to-save-the-axolotl/ The Race to Save the Axolotl - when an axolotl loses a limb, it regrows, and nary a scar remains. But this incredible creature is on the brink of extinction. The first robust count of axolotls in 1998 estimated that around 6,000 animals lived in each square kilometer ... in 2015, he only found 35 per square kilometer. The axolotl is the world’s the oldest self-sustaining laboratory animal population. But it is unknown how long researchers will still be able to work with the axolotl: Like many lab animals, they are highly inbred, which could threaten their survival. To measure how small a gene pool is, scientists use an “inbreeding coefficient:” identical twins have an inbreeding coefficient of 100, completely unrelated individuals a coefficient of zero. For healthy growth, a captive population should have a coefficient of 12.5 at maximum. The notoriously inbred Spanish Habsburgs had a coefficient of 20; the coefficient for axolotls is 35.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  Axolotl are going extinct because the tiny extent of their natural habitat is underneath what is now Mexico City. There are 10 million people living on top of their native environment, veganism does nothing to address this.
  - Grimburger 3y ago
    The immediate jump to food preferences in this thread is strange, it's very evident that changing diet, modes of transport and a plethora of other things we argue about doing is a rounding error compared to simply having one less child, overpopulation is the root cause of all this yet an incredibly taboo issue to discuss. https://i.cbc.ca/1.4204289.1499983814!/fileImage/httpImage/emissions-choices.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.4204289.1499983814!/fileImage/httpImage/e... Countries should work towards stabilising their populations first otherwise it's all for naught.

rollcat 3y ago

I think it's a mix of groupthink and "someone else's problem". It's hard to break through an echo chamber and it's hard to accept something that inconveniences you. (I would assume the parts of the world where most of HN's audience resides are not going to be impacted by climate change as soon and as hard as many others.) I do believe HN is full of intelligent and compassionate people. Perhaps it's compassion fatigue? (Too many horrible things happening, can I even make a difference through my individual actions?) Maybe we just needed you to make a good analogy, to illustrate the problem?

worldsayshi 3y ago

This times a thousand. The amount of unique information that is encoded in any single species likely dwarfs the collective knowledge of mankind.

dilawar 3y ago

I feel helpless and very gloomy when I think about biodiversity loss and climate change. I even fast forward David Attenborough documentries when he talks about these things. Sometimes "its all going to hell but we are going in together" thought is more comforting than thinking about my own and everyone else apathy. Thanks for making "code written by nature" comment. Knuth also agrees that bioinformatics has many more fantastic problems than computer science because its much much older. I was in awe of planeria when I first saw it regenerating from its parts first time.

andersa 3y ago

> But when someone mentions veganism around here, all those hackers flag his post to oblivion. Veganism will never save us there. It's because meat tastes good. That's literally all there is to why we aren't all vegan. Humans will not voluntarily give up one of the nice things they currently have access to and enjoy. Nobody cares about delayed indirect consequences on a planetary scale. Our brains aren't wired to think that way, since it provides no instant gratification. If someone came up with a novel way to create a meat-like material that actually tastes as good, without involving inefficient animal farming, it will be a much more successful approach at solving this problem.

zacmps 3y ago
> Humans will not voluntarily give up one of the nice things they currently have access to and enjoy Plenty of people have, somewhat nullifying your comment.
- andersa 3y ago
  Barely 1% of the world's population have, I think the point stands.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Yes, because for decades or longer, meat has been associated with affluence and a higher standard of living. There is no country in the world without meat & dairy subsidies. On a finite planet with 8 billion people, to feed everyone the "western diet," we would need 2-5 such planets. It's simply not longer possible. https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ Veganism grows very fast, though. It's already starting to influence meat and dairy sales, enough to make some producers very nervous (wood milk ads, for example). --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU The Secret Reason We Eat Meat - Dr. Melanie Joy https://www.plantproteins.co/vegan-plant-based-diet-statistics/ https://www.plantproteins.co/vegan-plant-based-diet-statisti... As many as 6% of U.S. consumers say they are vegan — a 6x (500%) increase compared to just 1% in 2014. U.S. retail sales of plant-based foods have increased 11 percent from 2018 to 2019, hitting a plant-based market value to $4.5 billion.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

DoreenMichele 3y ago

Genetic information is code Have an upvote for that line. Me like. It's how I think of it.

raincole 3y ago

Hacker News is, uh, a name. I don't think most people here are "hackers", nor they identify themselves as ones. Most people are just employees in FAAG or some VC-funded firms. And to be honest I don't even think most people here are informed enough to discuss biodiversity. I definitely am not.

XorNot 3y ago

Veganism has nothing to do with biodiversity loss though. Land clearing happens for ranching purposes, but is also happens for peanuts, coconut oil and all sorts of other products. Rice[1] is a cash crop associated with land clearing. For example a practical sustainable diet for the world would be much more efficient if it included goat milk and meat, because goats can subsist off of marginal lands and foods which humans can't. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/44127803 https://www.jstor.org/stable/44127803

myshpa 3y ago
> Land clearing happens for ranching purposes, but is also happens for peanuts, coconut oil and all sorts of other products Ranching takes 80% of the agriculture land, 50+% pastures were forested in the past. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#beef-soy-and-palm-oil-are-responsible-for-60-of-tropical-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#beef-soy... Combined, beef and oilseeds account for nearly 60% of deforestation (majority of oilseeds are mostly used for animal feed). > goats ... can subsist off of marginal lands and foods which humans can't That's the typical argument of animal ag farmers. That land should be rewilded and afforested, to enable return of the wildlife. Goats and grazing are a recipe for desertification: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0959683616670470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09596836166704... Blame it on the goats? Desertification in the Near East during the Holocene https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate-disaster-and-youre-paying-for-it/ https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate... Cattle grazing is a climate disaster, and you’re paying for it https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-co... Grazed and Confused? > Veganism has nothing to do with biodiversity loss though https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://phys.org/news/2023-04-climate-crisis-biodiversity-approached.html https://phys.org/news/2023-04-climate-crisis-biodiversity-ap... The climate crisis and biodiversity crisis can't be approached separately, says study https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287498/meat-wildlife-biodiversity-species-plantbased https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287498/meat-wildlife-bi... The way we eat could lead to habitat loss for 17,000 species by 2050 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-00603-4 In terms of carbon sequestration and dealing w/ climate, it is clear that agricultural land use(especially land used for animal feed) is the largest barrier to ecosystem restoration. Potential for carbon sequestration is enormous (literally enough for the entire 1.5C carbon budget) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth