14 ms·

Free prison phone calls boost family ties, rehabilitation

394 points by ohjeez 3y ago

nameless912 3y ago
This is one of those findings that feels so unbelievably obvious. Of _course_ giving prisoners the ability to stay connected with the outside world helps rehabilitate them. It also really highlights just how cruel for cruelty's sake our modern prison system is. I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US and many other countries with large prison populations as a method of "rehabilitation", but the data shows us that if you actually care about healing people (spoiler: the US does not), it's both not very expensive and extremely positive for society to do it right. It starts with free phone calls, work transition programs, reducing restrictions on jobs held by ex-felons, and other simple changes that cost a hell of a lot less than taking care of the broken souls our prisons churn out.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  The primary purpose of prisons is to keep criminals out of the streets and physically unable to re-offend. Punishment and/or rehabilitation are at most distant secondary considerations.
  - Tronno 3y ago
    If that were true, then why do prison sentences have an end date?
    - fnimick 3y ago
      A disturbing number of Americans would be very happy if they didn't. See: "tough on crime" winning elections everywhere, three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, and the surprisingly popular viewpoint even in relatively liberal areas that more crimes should face the death penalty. The last one is particularly eye-opening: when I point out that the death penalty costs the state more due to appeals, the response I frequently get is that the solution there is to make the death penalty easier to apply and block appeals on it. "Execute all drug dealers" and the like.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - 7952 3y ago
    It is a false dichotomy. We could have both.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  People always bring up that "90% of US prisons are public so it's not a private prison problem" but those public prisons all contract out things like food and communication and monitoring and anything else that's possible to private companies. Nobody should profit off of prison, period.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    Don't forget the per minute charge to use kiosk computers to send electronic communication with family, or the pay to use phone app for family members to get those same communications. Or that you have to buy any medications sold in commissary from there and won't be given them at medical (which costs $5 a visit when you don't make $5 a month) like aspirin at the for profit commissary that buys from jacked up 'prison commissary' distributors and has a way shorter than what you buy in the store expiration date. Keep in mind you are not allowed to share 'medication' and that having expired 'medication' in your locker can be a shot (writeup, potential loss of good time, potential to have your security points increased and shipped to a higher security(i.e. less safe) prison).
    - ForOldHack 3y ago
      $5 a visit, when they are making $0.33 and hour...more than two days labor to pay it all for a doctor visit. "One of the biggest differences between the incarceration systems of Norway and the USA is that Norway does not have large, centralized jails. Instead, Norway utilizes a system of small, community-based correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation and reintegration into society." "Norway's prison system houses approximately three thousand offenders. Norway's prison system is renowned as one of the most effective and humane in the world. Norway does not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment." Seems U.S.A. has cruel and unusual punishment for prison health.
  - nickff 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - conscion 3y ago
- cameldrv 3y ago
  Having no contact with anyone except convicted criminals and prison guards for a long time has to change a person.
  - teeray 3y ago
    “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with” applies here
  - hkt 3y ago
    I forget where the term comes from, but in some social science there's a conception of prisons as "universities of crime"
    - toomanyrichies 3y ago
      The 1995 film "Heat" refers to them as "gladiator academies". And there's a great Willem Dafoe film called about the US prison system called "Animal Factory".
  - pie420 3y ago
    Now apply that logic to homeless people.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      We shouldn’t be putting homeless people in prison either. What’s your point?
      - maksimur 3y ago
        He probably meant something like "Having no contact with anyone except homeless people for a long time has to change a person."
- swayvil 3y ago
  99% of our movies involve "the good guy" beating down "the bad guy". It's some kind of deep-rooted psychological thing. Permanent pubescent power fantasies. Is it a plague of bad taste? A conspiracy to make everybody dumber?
  - fnimick 3y ago
    My personal take is that it's a stress response in the US. Our society and economic system has evolved to put the vast majority of people one or two paychecks away from poverty. When you feel like your life is miserable, and you have no hope of improving it, it feels good to see righteous violence done to someone lesser.
    - swayvil 3y ago
      That's an interesting idea. Stress is a drug in this way. Affecting our emotions and how we see and think.
- ldehaan 3y ago
  [dead]
- CobrastanJorji 3y ago
  A similar example: educating prisoners reduces recidivism. Feels obvious, right? Education leads to jobs, jobs lead to money, money means less need to do crime. But then you get these "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay, prison should be a punishment" takes, and so whenever one of these programs gets too effective and popular, it's liable to get killed. This is actually the first year Pell grants have been available to prisoners since it was banned 30 years ago.
  - ipcress_file 3y ago
    I was at Millhaven, a maximum security institution in Ontario, a few years ago. The prisoners told me that only 10 of them could attend university courses at a time. The librarian confirmed it.
  - pohuing 3y ago
    > But then you get these... They're not even wrong. But isn't the obvious answer to make higher education accessible to everyone, instead of just those with capital?!
    - Shawnj2 3y ago
      I think another obvious answer would be to make community college classes available to prisoners. In California (and other places) it’s very easy to get community college for free regardless of income level. Doing this more widely and offering people in prison CC classes for free means that this isn’t something “special” only people in prison get. You could even take a page out of Georgia Tech and similar universities’ books and offer prisoners online versions of classes with prerecorded materials + a TA with office hours and that they can email for questions to relatively cheaply deploy classes in prisons without needing to spend a professor’s time and without the security concerns of them entering the prison.
  - amatecha 3y ago
    "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay" When people say that shit (because they do), I respond: yeah, hahah, that's a good point isn't it? :) Why doesn't everyone get free college? :)
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  > I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US Another side of the US, the idea that everything has to be a business, in that case, charging prisoners to make phone calls.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  I spent 10 years in pretrial detention and 99% of the time there was zero to do except look at the walls. The system doesn't want to do anything to help you. You have to make your own re-education inside.
- superchroma 3y ago
  Exactly this.
falcolas 3y ago
This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. It's why we care so little about their treatment while in prison. Why we make rape jokes about prisoners. Why we rarely get angry about prisoners dying in prisons. And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. Yes, I'm to angry about this state of affairs to even begin to think it can be changed.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  > And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. *slaves
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    The Thirteenth Amendment forbade slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.” https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...
    - guerrilla 3y ago
      Okay? This is well-known. What is your point?
      - Philpax 3y ago
        They were supporting your claim for other readers by demonstrating the exception in the amendment, not trying to raise a new point.
    - worik 3y ago
      > except as punishment So if making a profit is the purpose it is illegal?
    - qingcharles 3y ago
      And on top of that there are literally dozens of other exceptions the courts have come up with over the years. I was forced into slavery by the government in the USA, due to exceptions that allow the government to force unconvicted persons into labor in certain circumstances. Here are a few of the other exceptions: https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the-general-basic-system-of-free-labor-an-analysis-of-historical-judge-made-exceptions-to-the-thirteenth-amendment/ https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the...
foogazi 3y ago
> In June, the overall prison phone bill increased more than tenfold, to nearly $2.4 million. They should look into getting an unlimited minutes plan
- OO000oo 3y ago
  Then how would the phone company executives be able to afford the campaign donations?
andrewstuart 3y ago
US prison systems appear to want to brutalize prisoners at every opportunity. Exactly what is the punishment? Is the punishment loss of liberty for a period of time? Or is the idea that for a period of time you are subjected to whatever punishments and humiliations and dehumanization the system can hit you with?
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  If you watch US media it's obviously the latter. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many jokes about "pound you in the ass" prison. Prison sexual assault is often even cited as a positive when talking about criminals like rapists of pedophiles.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  The main goal of the prison system is to keep criminals apart from society, preventing them from re-offending as long as they are locked up. The conditions of the imprisonment don't matter at all from this perspective.
OO000oo 3y ago
[flagged]
- tenebrisalietum 3y ago
  Let's start allowing police departments to pay officers per arrest, then.
  - hkt 3y ago
    Or forcing them to downsize and not overspend on militarised weapons?
  - twiddling 3y ago
    Hello Civil Asset Forfeiture
pessimizer 3y ago
We're not interested in rehabilitation in the US. We have parasites here who lobby against the relaxation of drug laws solely because they make money from the prison population. We elect presidents with crackhead sons that are responsible for passing unbelievably draconian drug laws. Of course allowing phone calls with family keeps connections with family secure, and of course secure connections with family reduces recidivism. This is the biggest non-discovery since a right-wing economist discovered that people who went bankrupt due to medical debt weren't all irresponsible people, and decided to go into politics as a champion of the working class, trading on that "scholarship." When will people stop discovering the poor and the weak, and stop voting or actively lobbying against them? Prison phone calls have been a government-granted exploitation racket since forever, but somehow they're still legal. Our progressives hire an unofficial credit card lobbyist to be president, and shed crocodile tears for black people who are poorer than they were in 1995. edit: here's my proposal. Let's not isolate prisoners from society at all. Let's allow reporters in every prison, give them facilities within the building to work, and let them talk to whoever, whenever, and report whatever. Let's take the opportunity that we have gained from nabbing an out of control person to bring them back into society, rather than push them out farther. Let them vote. Let them do remote work to pay off their victims, the state, and to support their families. Prison should be where we put people in order to protect society, not a torture chamber.
voisin 3y ago
Let’s cut the bullshit. Prisons have nothing to do with rehabilitation and everything to do with punishment and dissuading others. If there was any desire for rehabilitation, prisons would look a lot more like in-patient therapy. Phone calls would never have cost as much as they have, and books and other self-improvement tools would be freely available.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  Someone else mentioned this and I don't think it's talked about enough: They're basically there to just warehouse shady people so they can't commit more crimes.
  - tyingq 3y ago
    Shady people who couldn't afford a good lawyer.
    - P_I_Staker 3y ago
      Yup, I'm just talking on paper, too. Technically you could reduce crime, while still giving the rich a free pass. It's just shitty.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    Having spent a decade inside, that was the conclusion I came to. It basically keeps poor people off the streets.
- icecream_so_gud 3y ago
  Prisons don't deter crime. They might give the impression of deterrence to honest individuals. However, I think everyone in prison believed they had a scheme, process, or system in order to evade detection; believed what they were doing was on the boundary of the law, but inside it; or they committed a crime of passion.
  - peterfirefly 3y ago
anon-uaSh1mur 3y ago
It's not just the costs that get you, but also the arbitrary minutes-per-month limit. I was in federal prison for years. One week from release, I got an email about a friend in poor health. I had to pay by the minute to access that email account at a prison kiosk, by the way. One minute of email access cost roughly the same as what I was paid for a hour's labor at my prison job as a GED instructor. I called my friend as soon as I could get access to a phone. I had 5 minutes left of my monthly minutes budget because I'd spent nearly all of my 200 minute monthly allowance release planning with family. As we had only a few moments on the phone, they demanded I come see them the moment I was released. They had something very important they wanted to talk about. I spent the next few days appealing to every prison official for extra phone minutes to speak with my dying friend. Several of them had phones on their desks as we spoke, and could have just picked up the phone and given me a few minutes right then and there. They all had the authority and ability to assist, and they all refused. From case manager, church chaplin to assistant warden. One said because the other person isn't direct family, they don't count as important enough to grant me an extra phone call. They took three days to consider my request before denying it. Another accused me of lying to manipulate them into giving me extra phone minutes because I'd "wasted" what I was given and they thought we all got way too many minutes anyway. A few other prisoners offered to let me use their phone accounts to make calls, but if I had done that and been detected by prison staff who randomly monitored phone calls, I risked a disciplinary proceeding that could result in going to solitary confinement instead of going home, and throwing my release arrangements into disarray. My friend died the day before I went home. I still don't know what they wanted to tell me.
- gambiting 3y ago
  Man, that's fucking insane. Really sorry about your friend.
- sixothree 3y ago
  I had a friend in jail for a short period of time. I couldn’t let her languish. So I did those $25 hamburgers and $13 phone calls. Everything about this was repulsive to me. But for someone so gentle I couldn’t not do these things. Recidivism is the goal and not something we try to avoid. So sick of the way this country treats people.
weswilson 3y ago
There is a nonprofit that is trying to address this called Ameelio (https://www.ameelio.org/ https://www.ameelio.org/). They were hiring in the HN Who is Hiring thread. I don't know much about them, but it seems like they have some traction in a few states. Their voice call product says that it offers free voice calling, with all the monitoring/security features built in. I hope these types of nonprofit tech companies succeed as they are not profit seeking off of the misery of other people.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  it sounds like it doesn't satisfy the most critical requirement: allowing sadistic prison employees to torture and extort prisoners in fun and new ways with no oversight who are they expecting to buy this, Montessori prisons?
hkt 3y ago
The UK's ministry of justice has rolled out phones to quite a few prisons now and they have had an amazing impact, despite the opprobrium of idiot newspaper editors. It is thought that this cuts recidivism by 40% and allows people to stay in touch with family. The number is good, but it is worth considering one of the less often articulated points about the system: it punishes families, too. Take away a breadwinner, an extra pair of parental hands (however active), and put a father at a distance from their kids, and what do you get? A lonely partner who can't share domestic work. Kids with only one adult to relate to, where that adult now carries responsibilities that were previously shared. In other words, prisons incarcerate individuals but punish families. Phones in prisons lessen the blow somewhat, and it is little surprise that even this very small line of contact keeps people in touch with people they care about, instead of leaving them adrift and vulnerable to mixing with the wrong sorts on release. Really, they ought to be abolished. Other forms of punishment and rehabilitation exist. Restorative justice exists. It would be better that we used it. (I'm gendering the above in the way I am because in the UK, as in many other places, ten men are in prison for every one woman, give or take) https://www.gov.uk/government/news/in-cell-phones-for-more-prisons-in-drive-to-cut-crime https://www.gov.uk/government/news/in-cell-phones-for-more-p...
- sokoloff 3y ago
  There are probably a lot of prisoners who could safely benefit from alternative treatments. (Safety as judged from the perspective of law-abiding members of society.) But there is certainly a subset of them who would not be safe to treat outside of prison. And those people should remain in prison, IMO.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    Having spent a decade inside, I agree with your overall sentiment. There are some people who are completely unable to control their criminal behavior and probably just aren't safe to be released, but they could certainly be held in more humane conditions as their issues are probably due to the DNA lottery rather than anything they brought on themselves. But, the vast majority of those I met would be totally capable of living productive (tax-paying) lives if they had the necessary support to get their lives rebooted, employment and shelter found, etc.
rogerthis 3y ago
In Brazil free phone calls would* allow criminals to manage crime from prison, through family. * would = do; prisoners have easy access to cellphones, etc. Very common are scam calls originating from prisons. Classic real life meme is one criminal calling one person who happened to also be in another prison.
- dkural 3y ago
  It could be free calls from prison landlines, which can also be listened to fully for any criminal content.
  - pie420 3y ago
    So we have to hire trained, educated employees capable of detecting code speak and monitor every single phone conversation? Why are people so opposed to giving adults a time out with no phones, no calls, no distractions, just a book, rehabilitation classes, and job training. is it really that hard to see adult criminals as children who have misbehaved and need to be taught how to function in society? If parents punish a child, nobody blinks an eye, and even probably praises good parenting. If we punish delinquents and teach them how to operate in our hyper-complex society, it's problematic.
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      > Why are people so opposed to giving adults a time out with no phones, no calls, no distractions, just a book, rehabilitation classes, and job training. I don't think anybody is? Where do we find such a magical place?
      - bratgpttamer 3y ago
        Classes cost money. Books make no money. Charging by the minute to read books makes money. https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/prisoners-pay-to-read-prison-tablets/ https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/prison...
- 3y ago
nrdxp 3y ago
Who would have that that treating people like human beings would improve their humanity
wnc3141 3y ago
This feels like an intuitive conclusion. Of course sequestration from society is bad for mental health and ability to reintegrate into society. Prison phone call fees however are another example of the patronage to vendors. It was never about the interests of society.
josh_carterPDX 3y ago
Prisons are a money maker for both public and private entities. Everything has a cost including copays for medical and dental. Oregon is the worst when it comes to advocacy for prisoners while they tout how progressive they are. It's a racket and hopefully California is the example that motivates other states to change.
kerkeslager 3y ago
I'm... actually impressed by the comments in this thread. Normally when I look at the comments on a thread with a human aspect, HN can be relied upon to provide a truly horrific pro-corporate, anti-human comment upvoted to the top. But I'm genuinely and pleasantly surprised this time. Good job guys, maybe there's hope for y'all.
Meph504 3y ago
The prison lobby is very strong, and there is a massive money making machine ($3billion/yr in the US alone) that keeps the paywall that is access for prisoners, and for families intact. groups like https://www.ameelio.org/ https://www.ameelio.org/ have been for years trying to make a dent in this, but I think they are only in 3 states currently. I do think it really says something when communicating with those in prison is so hard that the IRS has to use a non-profit to do it. Like some much in this world, it is a cancerous greed that consumes makes everything worse for everyone.
IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
Seems fitting to post here. El Salvador, a country with the highest murder rate per capita in the world, passed emergency measures to enact strict antigang policies under the leadership of the young President Bukele (same guy that legalized bitcoin). Bukele was the first 3rd party candidate to win and break the 2-party duopolicy that ruled el salvador since 1970s The antigang policies included a strict no-phone-calls while in jail policy. Other policies included jamming cell signal in jail, no visitors, and temporary holding period (without charges) was increased from 2-3 to 10-15 days. All this was allowed under emergency measures voted by congress supermajority, which enabled special police powers for 30 days. The emergency measure has been renewed 10+ times already. Murders have gone down 92% [1]. There are entire neighborhoods that have recently opened small shops for the first time in decades (it was impossible to open any viable business due to crime). 9 out of 10 salvadoreans is happy and plans to vote to reelect Bukele in the upcoming election [2]. el Salvador congress is updating the constitution now since it does not allow re-election. The approval rating of ~90% is the highest of the entire western hemisphere. [1] wsj. https://archive.vn/azpDU https://archive.vn/azpDU
- solatic 3y ago
  Doesn't sound like a refutation of the article to me. There's a difference between using communication to keep gang ties strong, and using communication to keep family ties strong. A difference between incarceration of people who belong to organized crime syndicates (where their biological family ties are subsumed by their organized crime syndicate ties) and those who are incarcerated for armed robbery of a liquor store because they need cash to pay for their addiction. It shouldn't be a surprise that different prisoners engaged in crime for different reasons, and therefore require different strategies to rehabilitate.
  - thegaulofthem 3y ago
    So how do we meaningfully sort groups out? I’ve been to juvenile prison, loads of these teenagers were out and out proud of their being in. They would happily manipulate and game anything to their advantage, and as a result the guards are forced to be intolerant assholes for the most part. If they aren’t, they’ll be taken for suckers. So how do you sort of the otherwise good kid who gets into a fight or thought weed wasn’t a big deal from the future career criminals of America?
downboots 3y ago
I thought calls from prisons were associated with scams and other bad actions. Perhaps it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else.
jgaa 3y ago
Prisons are not there to rehabilitate people. Prisons are there to make profit for it's share holders.
philosopher1234 3y ago
Prison isnt just about rehab, its also about punishment, and thats good.
- icecream_so_gud 3y ago
  While punishment may lead to justice it is not required for justice to take place. What is required is accountability, rehabilitation and restitution. The current focus from the public appears to be, instead, retribution. That seems to be insatiable for those who have been transgressed. None of this requires the use of prisons. Although in the case of offenders likely to commit more violent crimes while justice is sort for previous offenses it, appears, to be our currently best way of management. Similar to how the aim of schooling is to create citizens who can engage productively in society; the focus of prisons should be on recreating productive citizens.
daedlanth 3y ago
[dead]

394 points by ohjeez 3y ago

This is one of those findings that feels so unbelievably obvious. Of _course_ giving prisoners the ability to stay connected with the outside world helps rehabilitate them. It also really highlights just how cruel for cruelty's sake our modern prison system is. I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US and many other countries with large prison populations as a method of "rehabilitation", but the data shows us that if you actually care about healing people (spoiler: the US does not), it's both not very expensive and extremely positive for society to do it right. It starts with free phone calls, work transition programs, reducing restrictions on jobs held by ex-felons, and other simple changes that cost a hell of a lot less than taking care of the broken souls our prisons churn out.

Georgelemental 3y ago
The primary purpose of prisons is to keep criminals out of the streets and physically unable to re-offend. Punishment and/or rehabilitation are at most distant secondary considerations.
- Tronno 3y ago
  If that were true, then why do prison sentences have an end date?
  - fnimick 3y ago
    A disturbing number of Americans would be very happy if they didn't. See: "tough on crime" winning elections everywhere, three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, and the surprisingly popular viewpoint even in relatively liberal areas that more crimes should face the death penalty. The last one is particularly eye-opening: when I point out that the death penalty costs the state more due to appeals, the response I frequently get is that the solution there is to make the death penalty easier to apply and block appeals on it. "Execute all drug dealers" and the like.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- 7952 3y ago
  It is a false dichotomy. We could have both.
mrguyorama 3y ago
People always bring up that "90% of US prisons are public so it's not a private prison problem" but those public prisons all contract out things like food and communication and monitoring and anything else that's possible to private companies. Nobody should profit off of prison, period.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  Don't forget the per minute charge to use kiosk computers to send electronic communication with family, or the pay to use phone app for family members to get those same communications. Or that you have to buy any medications sold in commissary from there and won't be given them at medical (which costs $5 a visit when you don't make $5 a month) like aspirin at the for profit commissary that buys from jacked up 'prison commissary' distributors and has a way shorter than what you buy in the store expiration date. Keep in mind you are not allowed to share 'medication' and that having expired 'medication' in your locker can be a shot (writeup, potential loss of good time, potential to have your security points increased and shipped to a higher security(i.e. less safe) prison).
  - ForOldHack 3y ago
    $5 a visit, when they are making $0.33 and hour...more than two days labor to pay it all for a doctor visit. "One of the biggest differences between the incarceration systems of Norway and the USA is that Norway does not have large, centralized jails. Instead, Norway utilizes a system of small, community-based correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation and reintegration into society." "Norway's prison system houses approximately three thousand offenders. Norway's prison system is renowned as one of the most effective and humane in the world. Norway does not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment." Seems U.S.A. has cruel and unusual punishment for prison health.
- nickff 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - conscion 3y ago
cameldrv 3y ago
Having no contact with anyone except convicted criminals and prison guards for a long time has to change a person.
- teeray 3y ago
  “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with” applies here
- hkt 3y ago
  I forget where the term comes from, but in some social science there's a conception of prisons as "universities of crime"
  - toomanyrichies 3y ago
    The 1995 film "Heat" refers to them as "gladiator academies". And there's a great Willem Dafoe film called about the US prison system called "Animal Factory".
- pie420 3y ago
  Now apply that logic to homeless people.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    We shouldn’t be putting homeless people in prison either. What’s your point?
    - maksimur 3y ago
      He probably meant something like "Having no contact with anyone except homeless people for a long time has to change a person."
swayvil 3y ago
99% of our movies involve "the good guy" beating down "the bad guy". It's some kind of deep-rooted psychological thing. Permanent pubescent power fantasies. Is it a plague of bad taste? A conspiracy to make everybody dumber?
- fnimick 3y ago
  My personal take is that it's a stress response in the US. Our society and economic system has evolved to put the vast majority of people one or two paychecks away from poverty. When you feel like your life is miserable, and you have no hope of improving it, it feels good to see righteous violence done to someone lesser.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    That's an interesting idea. Stress is a drug in this way. Affecting our emotions and how we see and think.
ldehaan 3y ago
[dead]
CobrastanJorji 3y ago
A similar example: educating prisoners reduces recidivism. Feels obvious, right? Education leads to jobs, jobs lead to money, money means less need to do crime. But then you get these "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay, prison should be a punishment" takes, and so whenever one of these programs gets too effective and popular, it's liable to get killed. This is actually the first year Pell grants have been available to prisoners since it was banned 30 years ago.
- ipcress_file 3y ago
  I was at Millhaven, a maximum security institution in Ontario, a few years ago. The prisoners told me that only 10 of them could attend university courses at a time. The librarian confirmed it.
- pohuing 3y ago
  > But then you get these... They're not even wrong. But isn't the obvious answer to make higher education accessible to everyone, instead of just those with capital?!
  - Shawnj2 3y ago
    I think another obvious answer would be to make community college classes available to prisoners. In California (and other places) it’s very easy to get community college for free regardless of income level. Doing this more widely and offering people in prison CC classes for free means that this isn’t something “special” only people in prison get. You could even take a page out of Georgia Tech and similar universities’ books and offer prisoners online versions of classes with prerecorded materials + a TA with office hours and that they can email for questions to relatively cheaply deploy classes in prisons without needing to spend a professor’s time and without the security concerns of them entering the prison.
- amatecha 3y ago
  "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay" When people say that shit (because they do), I respond: yeah, hahah, that's a good point isn't it? :) Why doesn't everyone get free college? :)
yodsanklai 3y ago
> I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US Another side of the US, the idea that everything has to be a business, in that case, charging prisoners to make phone calls.
qingcharles 3y ago
I spent 10 years in pretrial detention and 99% of the time there was zero to do except look at the walls. The system doesn't want to do anything to help you. You have to make your own re-education inside.
superchroma 3y ago
Exactly this.

falcolas 3y ago

This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. It's why we care so little about their treatment while in prison. Why we make rape jokes about prisoners. Why we rarely get angry about prisoners dying in prisons. And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. Yes, I'm to angry about this state of affairs to even begin to think it can be changed.

guerrilla 3y ago
> And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. *slaves
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  The Thirteenth Amendment forbade slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.” https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    Okay? This is well-known. What is your point?
    - Philpax 3y ago
      They were supporting your claim for other readers by demonstrating the exception in the amendment, not trying to raise a new point.
  - worik 3y ago
    > except as punishment So if making a profit is the purpose it is illegal?
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    And on top of that there are literally dozens of other exceptions the courts have come up with over the years. I was forced into slavery by the government in the USA, due to exceptions that allow the government to force unconvicted persons into labor in certain circumstances. Here are a few of the other exceptions: https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the-general-basic-system-of-free-labor-an-analysis-of-historical-judge-made-exceptions-to-the-thirteenth-amendment/ https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the...

foogazi 3y ago

> In June, the overall prison phone bill increased more than tenfold, to nearly $2.4 million. They should look into getting an unlimited minutes plan

OO000oo 3y ago
Then how would the phone company executives be able to afford the campaign donations?

andrewstuart 3y ago

US prison systems appear to want to brutalize prisoners at every opportunity. Exactly what is the punishment? Is the punishment loss of liberty for a period of time? Or is the idea that for a period of time you are subjected to whatever punishments and humiliations and dehumanization the system can hit you with?

AlexandrB 3y ago
If you watch US media it's obviously the latter. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many jokes about "pound you in the ass" prison. Prison sexual assault is often even cited as a positive when talking about criminals like rapists of pedophiles.
Georgelemental 3y ago
The main goal of the prison system is to keep criminals apart from society, preventing them from re-offending as long as they are locked up. The conditions of the imprisonment don't matter at all from this perspective.

OO000oo 3y ago

[flagged]

tenebrisalietum 3y ago
Let's start allowing police departments to pay officers per arrest, then.
- hkt 3y ago
  Or forcing them to downsize and not overspend on militarised weapons?
- twiddling 3y ago
  Hello Civil Asset Forfeiture

pessimizer 3y ago

We're not interested in rehabilitation in the US. We have parasites here who lobby against the relaxation of drug laws solely because they make money from the prison population. We elect presidents with crackhead sons that are responsible for passing unbelievably draconian drug laws. Of course allowing phone calls with family keeps connections with family secure, and of course secure connections with family reduces recidivism. This is the biggest non-discovery since a right-wing economist discovered that people who went bankrupt due to medical debt weren't all irresponsible people, and decided to go into politics as a champion of the working class, trading on that "scholarship." When will people stop discovering the poor and the weak, and stop voting or actively lobbying against them? Prison phone calls have been a government-granted exploitation racket since forever, but somehow they're still legal. Our progressives hire an unofficial credit card lobbyist to be president, and shed crocodile tears for black people who are poorer than they were in 1995. edit: here's my proposal. Let's not isolate prisoners from society at all. Let's allow reporters in every prison, give them facilities within the building to work, and let them talk to whoever, whenever, and report whatever. Let's take the opportunity that we have gained from nabbing an out of control person to bring them back into society, rather than push them out farther. Let them vote. Let them do remote work to pay off their victims, the state, and to support their families. Prison should be where we put people in order to protect society, not a torture chamber.

voisin 3y ago

Let’s cut the bullshit. Prisons have nothing to do with rehabilitation and everything to do with punishment and dissuading others. If there was any desire for rehabilitation, prisons would look a lot more like in-patient therapy. Phone calls would never have cost as much as they have, and books and other self-improvement tools would be freely available.

P_I_Staker 3y ago
Someone else mentioned this and I don't think it's talked about enough: They're basically there to just warehouse shady people so they can't commit more crimes.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Shady people who couldn't afford a good lawyer.
  - P_I_Staker 3y ago
    Yup, I'm just talking on paper, too. Technically you could reduce crime, while still giving the rich a free pass. It's just shitty.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Having spent a decade inside, that was the conclusion I came to. It basically keeps poor people off the streets.
icecream_so_gud 3y ago
Prisons don't deter crime. They might give the impression of deterrence to honest individuals. However, I think everyone in prison believed they had a scheme, process, or system in order to evade detection; believed what they were doing was on the boundary of the law, but inside it; or they committed a crime of passion.
- peterfirefly 3y ago

anon-uaSh1mur 3y ago

It's not just the costs that get you, but also the arbitrary minutes-per-month limit. I was in federal prison for years. One week from release, I got an email about a friend in poor health. I had to pay by the minute to access that email account at a prison kiosk, by the way. One minute of email access cost roughly the same as what I was paid for a hour's labor at my prison job as a GED instructor. I called my friend as soon as I could get access to a phone. I had 5 minutes left of my monthly minutes budget because I'd spent nearly all of my 200 minute monthly allowance release planning with family. As we had only a few moments on the phone, they demanded I come see them the moment I was released. They had something very important they wanted to talk about. I spent the next few days appealing to every prison official for extra phone minutes to speak with my dying friend. Several of them had phones on their desks as we spoke, and could have just picked up the phone and given me a few minutes right then and there. They all had the authority and ability to assist, and they all refused. From case manager, church chaplin to assistant warden. One said because the other person isn't direct family, they don't count as important enough to grant me an extra phone call. They took three days to consider my request before denying it. Another accused me of lying to manipulate them into giving me extra phone minutes because I'd "wasted" what I was given and they thought we all got way too many minutes anyway. A few other prisoners offered to let me use their phone accounts to make calls, but if I had done that and been detected by prison staff who randomly monitored phone calls, I risked a disciplinary proceeding that could result in going to solitary confinement instead of going home, and throwing my release arrangements into disarray. My friend died the day before I went home. I still don't know what they wanted to tell me.

gambiting 3y ago
Man, that's fucking insane. Really sorry about your friend.
sixothree 3y ago
I had a friend in jail for a short period of time. I couldn’t let her languish. So I did those $25 hamburgers and $13 phone calls. Everything about this was repulsive to me. But for someone so gentle I couldn’t not do these things. Recidivism is the goal and not something we try to avoid. So sick of the way this country treats people.

weswilson 3y ago

There is a nonprofit that is trying to address this called Ameelio (https://www.ameelio.org/ https://www.ameelio.org/). They were hiring in the HN Who is Hiring thread. I don't know much about them, but it seems like they have some traction in a few states. Their voice call product says that it offers free voice calling, with all the monitoring/security features built in. I hope these types of nonprofit tech companies succeed as they are not profit seeking off of the misery of other people.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
it sounds like it doesn't satisfy the most critical requirement: allowing sadistic prison employees to torture and extort prisoners in fun and new ways with no oversight who are they expecting to buy this, Montessori prisons?

hkt 3y ago

The UK's ministry of justice has rolled out phones to quite a few prisons now and they have had an amazing impact, despite the opprobrium of idiot newspaper editors. It is thought that this cuts recidivism by 40% and allows people to stay in touch with family. The number is good, but it is worth considering one of the less often articulated points about the system: it punishes families, too. Take away a breadwinner, an extra pair of parental hands (however active), and put a father at a distance from their kids, and what do you get? A lonely partner who can't share domestic work. Kids with only one adult to relate to, where that adult now carries responsibilities that were previously shared. In other words, prisons incarcerate individuals but punish families. Phones in prisons lessen the blow somewhat, and it is little surprise that even this very small line of contact keeps people in touch with people they care about, instead of leaving them adrift and vulnerable to mixing with the wrong sorts on release. Really, they ought to be abolished. Other forms of punishment and rehabilitation exist. Restorative justice exists. It would be better that we used it. (I'm gendering the above in the way I am because in the UK, as in many other places, ten men are in prison for every one woman, give or take) https://www.gov.uk/government/news/in-cell-phones-for-more-prisons-in-drive-to-cut-crime https://www.gov.uk/government/news/in-cell-phones-for-more-p...

sokoloff 3y ago
There are probably a lot of prisoners who could safely benefit from alternative treatments. (Safety as judged from the perspective of law-abiding members of society.) But there is certainly a subset of them who would not be safe to treat outside of prison. And those people should remain in prison, IMO.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Having spent a decade inside, I agree with your overall sentiment. There are some people who are completely unable to control their criminal behavior and probably just aren't safe to be released, but they could certainly be held in more humane conditions as their issues are probably due to the DNA lottery rather than anything they brought on themselves. But, the vast majority of those I met would be totally capable of living productive (tax-paying) lives if they had the necessary support to get their lives rebooted, employment and shelter found, etc.

rogerthis 3y ago

In Brazil free phone calls would* allow criminals to manage crime from prison, through family. * would = do; prisoners have easy access to cellphones, etc. Very common are scam calls originating from prisons. Classic real life meme is one criminal calling one person who happened to also be in another prison.

dkural 3y ago
It could be free calls from prison landlines, which can also be listened to fully for any criminal content.
- pie420 3y ago
  So we have to hire trained, educated employees capable of detecting code speak and monitor every single phone conversation? Why are people so opposed to giving adults a time out with no phones, no calls, no distractions, just a book, rehabilitation classes, and job training. is it really that hard to see adult criminals as children who have misbehaved and need to be taught how to function in society? If parents punish a child, nobody blinks an eye, and even probably praises good parenting. If we punish delinquents and teach them how to operate in our hyper-complex society, it's problematic.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    > Why are people so opposed to giving adults a time out with no phones, no calls, no distractions, just a book, rehabilitation classes, and job training. I don't think anybody is? Where do we find such a magical place?
    - bratgpttamer 3y ago
      Classes cost money. Books make no money. Charging by the minute to read books makes money. https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/prisoners-pay-to-read-prison-tablets/ https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/prison...
3y ago

nrdxp 3y ago

Who would have that that treating people like human beings would improve their humanity

wnc3141 3y ago

This feels like an intuitive conclusion. Of course sequestration from society is bad for mental health and ability to reintegrate into society. Prison phone call fees however are another example of the patronage to vendors. It was never about the interests of society.

josh_carterPDX 3y ago

Prisons are a money maker for both public and private entities. Everything has a cost including copays for medical and dental. Oregon is the worst when it comes to advocacy for prisoners while they tout how progressive they are. It's a racket and hopefully California is the example that motivates other states to change.

kerkeslager 3y ago

I'm... actually impressed by the comments in this thread. Normally when I look at the comments on a thread with a human aspect, HN can be relied upon to provide a truly horrific pro-corporate, anti-human comment upvoted to the top. But I'm genuinely and pleasantly surprised this time. Good job guys, maybe there's hope for y'all.

Meph504 3y ago

The prison lobby is very strong, and there is a massive money making machine ($3billion/yr in the US alone) that keeps the paywall that is access for prisoners, and for families intact. groups like https://www.ameelio.org/ https://www.ameelio.org/ have been for years trying to make a dent in this, but I think they are only in 3 states currently. I do think it really says something when communicating with those in prison is so hard that the IRS has to use a non-profit to do it. Like some much in this world, it is a cancerous greed that consumes makes everything worse for everyone.

IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago

Seems fitting to post here. El Salvador, a country with the highest murder rate per capita in the world, passed emergency measures to enact strict antigang policies under the leadership of the young President Bukele (same guy that legalized bitcoin). Bukele was the first 3rd party candidate to win and break the 2-party duopolicy that ruled el salvador since 1970s The antigang policies included a strict no-phone-calls while in jail policy. Other policies included jamming cell signal in jail, no visitors, and temporary holding period (without charges) was increased from 2-3 to 10-15 days. All this was allowed under emergency measures voted by congress supermajority, which enabled special police powers for 30 days. The emergency measure has been renewed 10+ times already. Murders have gone down 92% [1]. There are entire neighborhoods that have recently opened small shops for the first time in decades (it was impossible to open any viable business due to crime). 9 out of 10 salvadoreans is happy and plans to vote to reelect Bukele in the upcoming election [2]. el Salvador congress is updating the constitution now since it does not allow re-election. The approval rating of ~90% is the highest of the entire western hemisphere. [1] wsj. https://archive.vn/azpDU https://archive.vn/azpDU

solatic 3y ago
Doesn't sound like a refutation of the article to me. There's a difference between using communication to keep gang ties strong, and using communication to keep family ties strong. A difference between incarceration of people who belong to organized crime syndicates (where their biological family ties are subsumed by their organized crime syndicate ties) and those who are incarcerated for armed robbery of a liquor store because they need cash to pay for their addiction. It shouldn't be a surprise that different prisoners engaged in crime for different reasons, and therefore require different strategies to rehabilitate.
- thegaulofthem 3y ago
  So how do we meaningfully sort groups out? I’ve been to juvenile prison, loads of these teenagers were out and out proud of their being in. They would happily manipulate and game anything to their advantage, and as a result the guards are forced to be intolerant assholes for the most part. If they aren’t, they’ll be taken for suckers. So how do you sort of the otherwise good kid who gets into a fight or thought weed wasn’t a big deal from the future career criminals of America?

downboots 3y ago

I thought calls from prisons were associated with scams and other bad actions. Perhaps it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else.

jgaa 3y ago

Prisons are not there to rehabilitate people. Prisons are there to make profit for it's share holders.

philosopher1234 3y ago

Prison isnt just about rehab, its also about punishment, and thats good.

icecream_so_gud 3y ago
While punishment may lead to justice it is not required for justice to take place. What is required is accountability, rehabilitation and restitution. The current focus from the public appears to be, instead, retribution. That seems to be insatiable for those who have been transgressed. None of this requires the use of prisons. Although in the case of offenders likely to commit more violent crimes while justice is sort for previous offenses it, appears, to be our currently best way of management. Similar to how the aim of schooling is to create citizens who can engage productively in society; the focus of prisons should be on recreating productive citizens.

daedlanth 3y ago

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