11 ms·

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' i

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How to comfortably and safely explore new ideas out loud with their action figures. How to discover what feels good and what doesn't. They're not playing. They're growing." My kids are young. But I'm confident this is generally true for teenagers, too. One quick example: I played WoW and looking back... I learned a ton about how to work in a team. How to be social. What social behaviours work and don't work. How to deal with people you don't like. How to delay gratification. How to plan. And it was all in a low-stakes environment.

pomian 3y ago
Brilliant comment. We had a principal in our little community school who had exactly that attitude. He encouraged 'playing", and was often criticized for his efforts, by parents who didn't understand. Overall, however, the kids from that school were all eager learners, curious as to the world around them, socially very well integrated, and easily adapted to the rigors in high school and later. Play, is under valued.
- OO000oo 3y ago
  The parents have every reason for concern, not because there's something wrong with the principal but because there's something wrong with the society their children are entering. The parents realize that their children will be screwed if they don't get into a good college, and the poorer parents need scholarships too! The principal's philosophical musings won't pay the bills.
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    My parents drove me to burnout, dropping out of college, and becoming an anxious traumatized wreck, by only providing support in response to achievements, and destroying my self-worth whenever I strayed from their chosen path of maximizing academic accomplishments to get into the most prestigious and stressful college possible. I don't plan to have kids, because I'm not doing well enough to provide an environment of psychological safety where they learn that they have worth as individuals and not just for their achievements, and I cannot give them a world where they will be safe from homelessness and starvation even if they do not find a high-paying college degree.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Kids don't need a college degree to avoid homelessness or starvation. They do need valuable skills, but that could be HVAC, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, any number of things that don't take anything more than some community/vocational college or just working your way up from entry-level to get into. People who are homeless or starving are mainly mentally ill, or simply have no skills to offer any employer and no desire to do any better.
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        yeah the AI is coming for your highfalutin desk job, but the carpenters will be making decent money for a while yet. basic woodworking skills are things that they can start picking up in HS shop classes; I spent summers working in a furniture factory framing chairs as a kid. got a neighbour who does asphalt paving -- just driveways. Dude is booked solid through the Fall and into December, and does alright. Not Palo Alto FAANG money but he's got a nice truck and a fishing boat and a nice garden that we bonded over / share tips about. point is: plenty of options for doing alright; the rest of the world ain't SF or NYC
        SoftTalker 3y ago
        Yeah I know a guy who started as an entry-level drywaller in high school (truly one of the shittiest jobs in construction) and he now owns one of the larger drywall contractors in the area, he makes way more money than I do in software. Has more hassles than I do though, drywall company employees tend to come with a lot of headaches.
        OO000oo 3y ago
        Yeah everyone can just be a business owner. That'll work out just great.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    I think you're making a connection between "if you're focusing on open-ended stuff at school you aren't learning X, Y, Z." I can empathize and to an extent I agree that this is a concern with "fitting into the real world." As someone who never ever even remotely had the grades to get into an engineering program and has spent his entire career as a robotics engineer, experiencing a lot of terrible engineers with advanced degrees (among a ton of incredibly brilliant ones!), I'm just not sold on it being that big a deal. I think the larger harm is a parent applying that kind of pressure. All that being said, everything in moderation. I don't think it means, "hey let your kid do whatever." But it also doesn't mean, "force your child to study the violin and load them up with an entire childhood of structured programs until they hate you."
  - hgomersall 3y ago
    I'm not sure that's true. Young kids need to play as part of their education. It seems reasonable to me that play makes you better trained to achieve those things you describe as important.
lolinder 3y ago
I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by random trial and error. Parents generally have a strong instinct to try to make things easier for their kids than they were for themselves growing up. We know the food is hot, so we blow on the kid's food or let it cool before giving it to them. We know the toy will break if it's repeatedly thrown down the stairs, so we impose a rule that "we don't do that in our house". We know X, Y, or Z, so we sit down with them and explain it to them. I don't think that these explanations and rules have no place (I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove!), but we need to recognize that it's a strictly inferior way of learning something when compared to experience. And as you point out, unstructured play is where kids get that experience in a low-stakes environment. Play serves a valuable purpose, but as soon as parents get involved to try to assist the purpose evaporates.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm." I've had this instinct whenever my kids are on the jungle gym to say, "slow down!" "That's too high!" etc. but I usually catch myself and think, "if they fall is it a cry or a hospital visit?"
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.
    - uoaei 3y ago
      Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselves!" It occurred to me at that moment that this kind of hovering and scolding teaches children to externalize the responsibility of understanding their environment and their place within it. They will literally never learn the lessons this father wants to impart because he will always be there to act for them, until the children's brains lose the plasticity necessary to properly internalize those things. Perhaps they will always struggle with a psychological complex they can never fully understand. I know this because I had a doting mother who always defined my priorities for me. I learned to nearly fully externalize the maintenance of those priorities to her expectations (which were transitively pinned to those of the formal academic and "professional" systems). Because of this I'm currently going through something of an existential crisis -- I really don't know what I want to do. My career has been unfulfilling and trying to develop lasting hobbies and interests have not borne out the deep kinds of satisfaction others seem to be able to achieve. I still hold out hope I can find something that "gets the ball rolling" but learning patience while watching myself continue to orient myself toward goals that have definitive, quantifiable, socially-acceptable ends has been unsettling. I want to feel comfortable in my day-to-day, or at least confident that the processes I enact encourage the development of a more whole being.
vorpalhex 3y ago
"Play is the work of the child" - Dr Maria Montessori
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  We often explained to ours they they were going to work like mommy and daddy, they just work at school (which was a Montessori and it was awesome).
theptip 3y ago
WoW is an interesting example. I’m sure there are lessons to be learned in any activity; it’s not like structured playtime is giving you zero information to update your world model. I suppose the question is whether the “learning density” is high or low, and diverse, in video games. I spent a lot of time on single player games as a kid and am open to the idea that MMOs give you more learning (particularly social, of course), but I do wonder how they compare with, say, team sports or running around the woods with your friends.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  That's usually on my mind, especially since my parents did a lot of "you're on X all the time" where X was at least a dozen different things throughout my teenage years. The way I'm approaching it is simply: all things in moderation. Did you go outside today? Do a bit of tidying? Spend some time at the craft table? Go nuts with Super Mario after dinner. Did you wake up and play Mario for a few hours and get cranky when your brother asked you to play outside? Might be time to press the parental finger on the scale.
  - theptip 3y ago
    I like the portfolio theory of play. The one thing I don't have a good feel for is, when is it time to let your kids exploit rather than explore? By which I mean, really start to dig into something they click with and obtain mastery? Seems really hard to tell, and perhaps we should just be skeptical of "easy" / "dopamine hooks" things like games, and perhaps unskeptical of hard things like science, art, etc. -- if a child wants to spend lots of time on a hard thing that's probably a good sign, if they want to spend lots of time on an easy thing that may or may not be good.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  I'm even more bullish as to whether WoW counts as much more than team play with training wheels on. When you screw up team play on the playground you can make enemies, rivals that will follow you through school for years to come, a reputation (for better or worse). You may have to look another kid in the eye and tell them, "No". I don't doubt you can acquire some skills from online play, but if you think you're leveling up in self-esteem, social skills, I imagine that will get really put to the test when you find yourself alone at a party, or in an interview for a job. Like flight simulators, they can be educational but I suspect it's a whole 'nother level of learning and experience when you could die if you screw up.
nonethewiser 3y ago
Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Most people do that with peers, not parents.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    Parents can play rough with their kids. They tend to if they value it. If they dont value it why would they let them play rough with others, who obviously care about their kids less than they do? To be clear, im not saying it has to come from their parents. Just that it’s usually the dad powerbombing the kid on the bed and advocating for contact sports. This dynamic illustrated: https://imgur.io/8RZn2YF https://imgur.io/8RZn2YF
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    never got in a fight with my parents, but there sure were plenty of shoving matches and occasional fists with the 8th graders on at me old schoolyard...
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  How on earth do you even get to the conclusion that rough and tumble play is off limit for kids of single mothers? Those kids are much more likely to go unsupervised for extended periods of times and are also more likely to learn life skills earlier as they support their mother.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    I never said it was off limits.
iancmceachern 3y ago
It's scrimmage for life
mrguyorama 3y ago
>'Play' is a misleading term. In psychology, the rest of your post is what "play" means. It's basically anything done as practice, or with low stakes, or without other purpose.
smogcutter 3y ago
If you keep your eyes open for it around (neurotypical) adolescents you’ll see that this is very true. Everything they do that they know is observed by others is an experiment. What happens if I say… what happens if I try… what happens if I wear… They’re very keenly tuned in to social feedback, far more so than we may realize as adults. IMO this is also why it’s so important as an adult to be very intentional and unambiguous when appropriate. Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful. Also worth considering how online interactions change the game- they’re trying all the same gambits, but the kinds of feedback they get are very very different than in person.
- bcrosby95 3y ago
  > Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful. Labels without understanding is kinda pointless. My friend's 5 year old has translated 'rude' to mean 'something I don't like'. Whenever he gets a timeout he calls his parents rude. It's actually pretty hilarious.
  - smogcutter 3y ago
    I mean yeah, real life is more complicated than an HN post, and that comment was mostly aimed at kids around 10-14 who are going through this particularly tumultuous, socially exploratory period. (As an aside, learning & applying rules without understanding sounds very developmentally appropriate for a 5 year old). What I’m really getting at is that we don’t always point out to other adults when they’re being rude, and when we do, our goal isn’t to teach them that they’re being an ass. With kids and teens, it’s worth taking a conscious effort to reframe these kinds of interactions. Specific language choices are also very important - eg always “that’s rude” and never “you’re rude”.
roody15 3y ago
Well said!
Aachen 3y ago
Of course. Kids aren't supposed to play instead of working just for the heck of it, there's a real purpose to it. I thought this understanding was part of upbringing and realising what it is you've been doing
brianmcc 3y ago
I really like this. The only thing that's missing from it is "fun" perhaps? I don't think it's "playing" unless there's also some intrinsic enjoyment!
cloudripper 3y ago
> They are testing the world. I like this a lot. That is so true. Personal anecdote: When I got my first car as a teenager (a cheap, used, beat-up sedan), I would often take it out to 'play', ehm, 'test the world'. I lived in a rural area and would drive random, remote backroads for hours with no maps (and no cell phones at the time). I would try to see if I could get lost. I never succeeded. I was always able to eventually find my way, while I was simultaneously building spatial awareness and a general sense of direction that accompanies me to this day. The winter time gave me the best 'testing' environment. I would drive these backroads when they were icey and very slick. When I had certainty there was no traffic anywhere near, I would see how I handled my car when I lost control. A few rotations later, after spinning uncontrollably, I was able to regain steering and was able to navigate out of the problem. Risky? Sure. Useful skills? Yes. Would my parents have stressed out knowing what I was doing, definitely. I'd like to think I'm a much better driver today because of it and have gotten myself out of some potentially consequential accidents because of my awareness of how a vehicle handles when out of control. Many people learn from doing - many kids especially. Being raised in proverbial padded rooms may mask very beneficial learning that corresponds to the real consequences of life that we will inevitably face in adulthood. There will always be risk by letting our kids loose a bit more, and thats probably the scariest of things for many parents..
GoodJokes 3y ago
[dead]
lossolo 3y ago
I also played WoW and learned a lot. I was leading a guild and was a raid leader in a somewhat semi-competitive environment (we were competing with other guilds on our server for first kills). If you want to learn how to be a team leader in a highly competitive environment where people fail, things do not go as planned, and you need to improvise, where stress comes into play when you fail for the 27th time over the last 4 hours, then you can do it there for free. You learn how to make hard choices (you may need to replace a friend with another guildmate if they are holding the whole team back by failing game mechanics, etc.), how to lead a team, how people behave in stressful situations, how to keep the team together, and how to keep morale high, etc. So next time you see a kid playing WoW with others, don't underestimate the learning experience he will get there.
emadda 3y ago
Play is the Trojan Horse for getting the organism to learn the principles of reality.
dredmorbius 3y ago
Play is low-consequence exploration.
ecf 3y ago
I’m convinced the late 90s and early 00s was peak growing up years and it’s been going downhill ever since. One major factor in my reluctance to have kids is that there is zero possible way for me to offer a better experience for them compared to what I had.
raincole 3y ago
Isn't "play" biologically testing the world? Like cats do?
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
[dead]

pomian 3y ago

Brilliant comment. We had a principal in our little community school who had exactly that attitude. He encouraged 'playing", and was often criticized for his efforts, by parents who didn't understand. Overall, however, the kids from that school were all eager learners, curious as to the world around them, socially very well integrated, and easily adapted to the rigors in high school and later. Play, is under valued.

OO000oo 3y ago
The parents have every reason for concern, not because there's something wrong with the principal but because there's something wrong with the society their children are entering. The parents realize that their children will be screwed if they don't get into a good college, and the poorer parents need scholarships too! The principal's philosophical musings won't pay the bills.
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  My parents drove me to burnout, dropping out of college, and becoming an anxious traumatized wreck, by only providing support in response to achievements, and destroying my self-worth whenever I strayed from their chosen path of maximizing academic accomplishments to get into the most prestigious and stressful college possible. I don't plan to have kids, because I'm not doing well enough to provide an environment of psychological safety where they learn that they have worth as individuals and not just for their achievements, and I cannot give them a world where they will be safe from homelessness and starvation even if they do not find a high-paying college degree.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Kids don't need a college degree to avoid homelessness or starvation. They do need valuable skills, but that could be HVAC, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, any number of things that don't take anything more than some community/vocational college or just working your way up from entry-level to get into. People who are homeless or starving are mainly mentally ill, or simply have no skills to offer any employer and no desire to do any better.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      yeah the AI is coming for your highfalutin desk job, but the carpenters will be making decent money for a while yet. basic woodworking skills are things that they can start picking up in HS shop classes; I spent summers working in a furniture factory framing chairs as a kid. got a neighbour who does asphalt paving -- just driveways. Dude is booked solid through the Fall and into December, and does alright. Not Palo Alto FAANG money but he's got a nice truck and a fishing boat and a nice garden that we bonded over / share tips about. point is: plenty of options for doing alright; the rest of the world ain't SF or NYC
      - SoftTalker 3y ago
        Yeah I know a guy who started as an entry-level drywaller in high school (truly one of the shittiest jobs in construction) and he now owns one of the larger drywall contractors in the area, he makes way more money than I do in software. Has more hassles than I do though, drywall company employees tend to come with a lot of headaches.
        OO000oo 3y ago
        Yeah everyone can just be a business owner. That'll work out just great.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  I think you're making a connection between "if you're focusing on open-ended stuff at school you aren't learning X, Y, Z." I can empathize and to an extent I agree that this is a concern with "fitting into the real world." As someone who never ever even remotely had the grades to get into an engineering program and has spent his entire career as a robotics engineer, experiencing a lot of terrible engineers with advanced degrees (among a ton of incredibly brilliant ones!), I'm just not sold on it being that big a deal. I think the larger harm is a parent applying that kind of pressure. All that being said, everything in moderation. I don't think it means, "hey let your kid do whatever." But it also doesn't mean, "force your child to study the violin and load them up with an entire childhood of structured programs until they hate you."
- hgomersall 3y ago
  I'm not sure that's true. Young kids need to play as part of their education. It seems reasonable to me that play makes you better trained to achieve those things you describe as important.

lolinder 3y ago

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by random trial and error. Parents generally have a strong instinct to try to make things easier for their kids than they were for themselves growing up. We know the food is hot, so we blow on the kid's food or let it cool before giving it to them. We know the toy will break if it's repeatedly thrown down the stairs, so we impose a rule that "we don't do that in our house". We know X, Y, or Z, so we sit down with them and explain it to them. I don't think that these explanations and rules have no place (I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove!), but we need to recognize that it's a strictly inferior way of learning something when compared to experience. And as you point out, unstructured play is where kids get that experience in a low-stakes environment. Play serves a valuable purpose, but as soon as parents get involved to try to assist the purpose evaporates.

Waterluvian 3y ago
The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm." I've had this instinct whenever my kids are on the jungle gym to say, "slow down!" "That's too high!" etc. but I usually catch myself and think, "if they fall is it a cry or a hospital visit?"
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselves!" It occurred to me at that moment that this kind of hovering and scolding teaches children to externalize the responsibility of understanding their environment and their place within it. They will literally never learn the lessons this father wants to impart because he will always be there to act for them, until the children's brains lose the plasticity necessary to properly internalize those things. Perhaps they will always struggle with a psychological complex they can never fully understand. I know this because I had a doting mother who always defined my priorities for me. I learned to nearly fully externalize the maintenance of those priorities to her expectations (which were transitively pinned to those of the formal academic and "professional" systems). Because of this I'm currently going through something of an existential crisis -- I really don't know what I want to do. My career has been unfulfilling and trying to develop lasting hobbies and interests have not borne out the deep kinds of satisfaction others seem to be able to achieve. I still hold out hope I can find something that "gets the ball rolling" but learning patience while watching myself continue to orient myself toward goals that have definitive, quantifiable, socially-acceptable ends has been unsettling. I want to feel comfortable in my day-to-day, or at least confident that the processes I enact encourage the development of a more whole being.

vorpalhex 3y ago

"Play is the work of the child" - Dr Maria Montessori

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
We often explained to ours they they were going to work like mommy and daddy, they just work at school (which was a Montessori and it was awesome).

theptip 3y ago

WoW is an interesting example. I’m sure there are lessons to be learned in any activity; it’s not like structured playtime is giving you zero information to update your world model. I suppose the question is whether the “learning density” is high or low, and diverse, in video games. I spent a lot of time on single player games as a kid and am open to the idea that MMOs give you more learning (particularly social, of course), but I do wonder how they compare with, say, team sports or running around the woods with your friends.

Waterluvian 3y ago
That's usually on my mind, especially since my parents did a lot of "you're on X all the time" where X was at least a dozen different things throughout my teenage years. The way I'm approaching it is simply: all things in moderation. Did you go outside today? Do a bit of tidying? Spend some time at the craft table? Go nuts with Super Mario after dinner. Did you wake up and play Mario for a few hours and get cranky when your brother asked you to play outside? Might be time to press the parental finger on the scale.
- theptip 3y ago
  I like the portfolio theory of play. The one thing I don't have a good feel for is, when is it time to let your kids exploit rather than explore? By which I mean, really start to dig into something they click with and obtain mastery? Seems really hard to tell, and perhaps we should just be skeptical of "easy" / "dopamine hooks" things like games, and perhaps unskeptical of hard things like science, art, etc. -- if a child wants to spend lots of time on a hard thing that's probably a good sign, if they want to spend lots of time on an easy thing that may or may not be good.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I'm even more bullish as to whether WoW counts as much more than team play with training wheels on. When you screw up team play on the playground you can make enemies, rivals that will follow you through school for years to come, a reputation (for better or worse). You may have to look another kid in the eye and tell them, "No". I don't doubt you can acquire some skills from online play, but if you think you're leveling up in self-esteem, social skills, I imagine that will get really put to the test when you find yourself alone at a party, or in an interview for a job. Like flight simulators, they can be educational but I suspect it's a whole 'nother level of learning and experience when you could die if you screw up.

nonethewiser 3y ago

Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc

anigbrowl 3y ago
Most people do that with peers, not parents.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Parents can play rough with their kids. They tend to if they value it. If they dont value it why would they let them play rough with others, who obviously care about their kids less than they do? To be clear, im not saying it has to come from their parents. Just that it’s usually the dad powerbombing the kid on the bed and advocating for contact sports. This dynamic illustrated: https://imgur.io/8RZn2YF https://imgur.io/8RZn2YF
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  never got in a fight with my parents, but there sure were plenty of shoving matches and occasional fists with the 8th graders on at me old schoolyard...
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
How on earth do you even get to the conclusion that rough and tumble play is off limit for kids of single mothers? Those kids are much more likely to go unsupervised for extended periods of times and are also more likely to learn life skills earlier as they support their mother.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  I never said it was off limits.

iancmceachern 3y ago

It's scrimmage for life

mrguyorama 3y ago

>'Play' is a misleading term. In psychology, the rest of your post is what "play" means. It's basically anything done as practice, or with low stakes, or without other purpose.

smogcutter 3y ago

If you keep your eyes open for it around (neurotypical) adolescents you’ll see that this is very true. Everything they do that they know is observed by others is an experiment. What happens if I say… what happens if I try… what happens if I wear… They’re very keenly tuned in to social feedback, far more so than we may realize as adults. IMO this is also why it’s so important as an adult to be very intentional and unambiguous when appropriate. Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful. Also worth considering how online interactions change the game- they’re trying all the same gambits, but the kinds of feedback they get are very very different than in person.

bcrosby95 3y ago
> Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful. Labels without understanding is kinda pointless. My friend's 5 year old has translated 'rude' to mean 'something I don't like'. Whenever he gets a timeout he calls his parents rude. It's actually pretty hilarious.
- smogcutter 3y ago
  I mean yeah, real life is more complicated than an HN post, and that comment was mostly aimed at kids around 10-14 who are going through this particularly tumultuous, socially exploratory period. (As an aside, learning & applying rules without understanding sounds very developmentally appropriate for a 5 year old). What I’m really getting at is that we don’t always point out to other adults when they’re being rude, and when we do, our goal isn’t to teach them that they’re being an ass. With kids and teens, it’s worth taking a conscious effort to reframe these kinds of interactions. Specific language choices are also very important - eg always “that’s rude” and never “you’re rude”.

roody15 3y ago

Well said!

Aachen 3y ago

Of course. Kids aren't supposed to play instead of working just for the heck of it, there's a real purpose to it. I thought this understanding was part of upbringing and realising what it is you've been doing

brianmcc 3y ago

I really like this. The only thing that's missing from it is "fun" perhaps? I don't think it's "playing" unless there's also some intrinsic enjoyment!

cloudripper 3y ago

> They are testing the world. I like this a lot. That is so true. Personal anecdote: When I got my first car as a teenager (a cheap, used, beat-up sedan), I would often take it out to 'play', ehm, 'test the world'. I lived in a rural area and would drive random, remote backroads for hours with no maps (and no cell phones at the time). I would try to see if I could get lost. I never succeeded. I was always able to eventually find my way, while I was simultaneously building spatial awareness and a general sense of direction that accompanies me to this day. The winter time gave me the best 'testing' environment. I would drive these backroads when they were icey and very slick. When I had certainty there was no traffic anywhere near, I would see how I handled my car when I lost control. A few rotations later, after spinning uncontrollably, I was able to regain steering and was able to navigate out of the problem. Risky? Sure. Useful skills? Yes. Would my parents have stressed out knowing what I was doing, definitely. I'd like to think I'm a much better driver today because of it and have gotten myself out of some potentially consequential accidents because of my awareness of how a vehicle handles when out of control. Many people learn from doing - many kids especially. Being raised in proverbial padded rooms may mask very beneficial learning that corresponds to the real consequences of life that we will inevitably face in adulthood. There will always be risk by letting our kids loose a bit more, and thats probably the scariest of things for many parents..

GoodJokes 3y ago

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lossolo 3y ago

I also played WoW and learned a lot. I was leading a guild and was a raid leader in a somewhat semi-competitive environment (we were competing with other guilds on our server for first kills). If you want to learn how to be a team leader in a highly competitive environment where people fail, things do not go as planned, and you need to improvise, where stress comes into play when you fail for the 27th time over the last 4 hours, then you can do it there for free. You learn how to make hard choices (you may need to replace a friend with another guildmate if they are holding the whole team back by failing game mechanics, etc.), how to lead a team, how people behave in stressful situations, how to keep the team together, and how to keep morale high, etc. So next time you see a kid playing WoW with others, don't underestimate the learning experience he will get there.

emadda 3y ago

Play is the Trojan Horse for getting the organism to learn the principles of reality.

dredmorbius 3y ago

Play is low-consequence exploration.

ecf 3y ago

I’m convinced the late 90s and early 00s was peak growing up years and it’s been going downhill ever since. One major factor in my reluctance to have kids is that there is zero possible way for me to offer a better experience for them compared to what I had.

raincole 3y ago

Isn't "play" biologically testing the world? Like cats do?

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

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