9 ms·

Mathematica 7.0 Released Today

43 points by pg 18y ago

llimllib 18y ago
It truly, truly sucks that Mathematica would cost me nearly a month of pay. I'd love to have it and use it, but that is just far too much.
- kqr2 18y ago
  Maybe you can try sage: http://wiki.sagemath.org/sage_mathematica http://wiki.sagemath.org/sage_mathematica
  - llimllib 18y ago
    I love all the components that sage is built on, and am a huge python nerd, though I haven't tried sage itself. Mathematica just does some super cool things and encourages a different pattern of thought, which I'd love to play with.
- jonknee 18y ago
  At least they have a hell of an educational discount. Probably the biggest I have seen.
  - llimllib 18y ago
    I learn things sometimes... do I qualify? (seriously though, I'm not a student. 2 credits at Johns Hopkins, right down the street, are about the same price as Mathematica)
    - ciscoriordan 18y ago
      Go take that class at Johns Hopkins, then click on this link: http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathforstudents http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathforstudents - $139.95 for a fully functional student version. You can also get a semester version for $44.95. "Note: Mathematica for Students is intended for students enrolled in accredited academic institutions and is for use on a student's own personal computer."
      - Dilpil 18y ago
        Of course, $139 is far too high for a student.
        lliiffee 18y ago
        Tons of students pay $100 for books. Tons of students pay $10,000-$30,000 for tuition.
        blasdel 18y ago
        But no students pay for software
        lliiffee 18y ago
        I suppose many don't. I guess it depends on the meaning of "too high" for a student. I took it to mean "students cannot afford to pay $139" rather than "at $139, students will prefer to get the software illegally, even though they could pay if they chose to".
Alex3917 18y ago
So when do we get the version he talked about at Startup School that can find a unifying theory of physics by running cellular automata with randomly generated start conditions?
- DaniFong 18y ago
  In 10^10^(big number) years? :-)
  - Alex3917 18y ago
    It's funny to think that the singularity, if it is coming, will produce this profound qualitative shift in human existence. And at the same time mean absolutely nothing in the face of a problem such as this.
    - LPTS 18y ago
      No singularity. You must have read to much sci-fi written by AI researchers afraid of dying and overly influenced by judeochristian conceptions of God. If you want a qualitative shift in human existence you must create it. The singularity isn't going to save us any more then beneficent aliens will solve my problems by taking me on their ship to the planet of the sex goddesses to live in bliss in their zoo.
      - Eliezer 18y ago
        Planet of the sex goddesses, got it.
        LPTS 18y ago
        google subgenius
        Eliezer 18y ago
        Google Eliezer Yudkowsky.
vizard 18y ago
Mathematica is nice but I dont like their licensing policies. Had a huge fight with them once after I had to reinstall my OS :(
etal 18y ago
Sweet Jesus. The image-processing capability is pretty hot, as is this: ProteinData["A2M", "MoleculePlot"] It's a shame Mathematica isn't open-source; I'd love to see the code.
- syntax-case 18y ago
  Why? Do you think there's something special about displaying molecules? Or do you think Mathematica does it better than anything else? Try PyMOL - the most widely used molecular graphics software, probably.
  - programnature 18y ago
    I think the point is that you have to type about 30 characters to get a 3d plot of the molecule of choice. Unlike M-, PyMOL doesn't have the data built-in, so you have to find, download, load etc yourself.
    - syntax-case 18y ago
      4 characters with PyMOL: Click Plugin, then PDB Load; then type 1UBQ
  - etal 18y ago
    Yes, I use PyMol quite a bit. The source code is hideous, and the author likes it that way. It would take an immense effort to smoothly incorporate PyMol into a larger system like SciPy or Sage; it would be very useful if that happened, but I don't think it will any time soon. I haven't used Mathematica 7 yet, but it looks like the tools it implements in one small library are decent substitutes for what's currently implemented in several big hairy bioinformatics toolchains. Look at how we operate now -- NCBI offers a bunch of free standalone tools; BioPerl and BioPython do some good glue, and then there are a bunch of visualization tools, and we FTP copies of whatever databases we need and keep updated manually. The extensible tools each have their own extension language, so a RasMol script won't load in PyMol (the tweaks, not the PDB file). Mathematica 7 appears to offer the basic components of this in one clean, well-organized standard library, controlled by one powerful language. All that's great, but the especially interesting thing is their claim that the design of the whole system made all of this easy. The image-processing tricks and the unassuming Parallelize function seem like very specialized features, but they cobbled all of this together in, I guess, 2 years and some change, on top of a codebase that's almost 20 years old. It's like the anti-PHP -- brilliant design decisions all along that make adding new features easier, not harder. I have a feeling the Mathematica source code contains some very interesting ideas, and if it were open-source, it would be relatively easy to add additional features that seem like a big deal in existing tools.
delackner 18y ago
While I will probably never use mathematica, due to its breathtaking price, one can only wonder how many researchers the world over simply pirate it. I also doubt we will ever see Wolfram willing to set the price at a level that normal human beings can afford. Perhaps a client-server version that does all its computing back at Wolfram's servers, would give them the confidence to dabble with a sane price point...
- newt0311 18y ago
  researchers work in universities, almost all of which have site-wide licenses. Site-wide licenses for mathematica also start to approach reason. Its doubtful that that many researchers will have to pirate it.
  - delackner 18y ago
    Universities in a lot of countries do not have budgets that can deal with even $1000 a seat.
    - dzorz 18y ago
      I can confirm this. We have a site-wide license for Matlab, but not for Mathematica. Educational version of Mathematica 7 would cost me my two monthly salaries - therefore I will pirate it.
      - listic 18y ago
        I didn't buy any, but from my point of view, Mathematica is priced just a bit lower than Matlab. Matlab quotes me $1900 for a single common license: http://www.mathworks.com/store/loginSubmitGuest.do http://www.mathworks.com/store/loginSubmitGuest.do while Mathematica is $1750: http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathematica/ http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathematica/ How much does site license for Matlab cost you?
        PStamatiou 18y ago
DaniFong 18y ago
Some of this stuff is jaw droppingly awesome. But I have to say, the most useful things for me will be the discrete calculus, the new visualizations, and the enhanced typesetting and UI. Many of the new mathematical additions are very interesting but very specific. I am very happy that Mathematica 7 ships with so much data. Data processing and procurement is a perpetual burden for those in chemistry, life science and environmental science. I'll be glad if this tax has somewhat lifted it.
mattjaynes 18y ago
If you missed Wolfram's talk at Startup School you can get it at (along with the other talks): http://feeds.feedburner.com/Ycombinator-StartupSchool http://feeds.feedburner.com/Ycombinator-StartupSchool
- nswanberg 18y ago
  Unfortunately, the link to the Wolfram talk on Feedburner isn't working. Here's a link to the transcript of the talk (the mp3 is also available for iPod-achievers by going to the talk index): http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/talks/ycombinatorschool/ http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/talks/ycombinator... The talk is worth a read, but he doesn't give out any secrets to success ("work hard"), and note that the title of the talk is "On Starting a Long Term Company." It seems aimed at solving the problem of "How can I get the people, software, and money for my research?" rather than the problem of "How can I afford that ocean-front mansion and retire at 30?"
nswanberg 18y ago
Those of you interested in Silicon Valley trivia might note that the name Mathematica was suggested by someone named Steven Jobs: http://reference.wolfram.com/legacy/v1/contents/acknowledgments.pdf http://reference.wolfram.com/legacy/v1/contents/acknowledgme... The name is a little misleading though, as the later releases have shown Mathematica to be a great general symbolic manipulation program not just for, say, Calculus homework, but Wolfram had already used the name SMP, and the other options just didn't seem as catchy: http://www.stephenwolfram.com/scrapbook/internals/page5/3.html http://www.stephenwolfram.com/scrapbook/internals/page5/3.ht...
- Create 18y ago
  I always believed, that it was a shameless borrowing (as do "great artist") of Macsyma -- living on free as Maxima. Octave, Scilab and python driven C++ (e.g. Automatically Tuned Linear Algebra Software, ATLAS) can do just as good, if not the same or better. If you know what you are doing (which would be a must, anyway). ps: Steven's book is full of spin, so I guess some of them would also make it to his website and vice-versa: this is called marketing and propaganda...
syntax-case 18y ago
Mathematica's bugginess (on SGI) is what prompted me to learn "real" programming languages some years ago.
maximilian 18y ago
The upgrade for students is $75 (if you have 6). I don't think i'm gonna jump. Doesn't really seem worth it? I never use the advanced features as is. All i ever do is basic algebraic manipulations and screwy integrals.
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
For $2500 it had better come as a brain implant
aswanson 18y ago
pg, any chance of negotiating a news.yc member discount?
anatyx 18y ago
I just a attended a free webinar about using Mathematica for education (http://www.wolfram.com/services/education/seminars/s01.html http://www.wolfram.com/services/education/seminars/s01.html) and the guy who was chatting with all of the attendees told me my college already had a site license. Turns out I can use Mathematica at school and at home for free and I had no idea... You might want to check if your campus has something similar set up. The Mathematica folks might be able to direct you to the right place.
schtog 18y ago
How is the programming language in Mathematica? How is it for Matlab stuff? Or perhaps it isn't for linear algebra at all? Can you write real standalone applications in Mathematica or it is solely for prototyping, analyizng and modeling?

43 points by pg 18y ago

It truly, truly sucks that Mathematica would cost me nearly a month of pay. I'd love to have it and use it, but that is just far too much.

kqr2 18y ago
Maybe you can try sage: http://wiki.sagemath.org/sage_mathematica http://wiki.sagemath.org/sage_mathematica
- llimllib 18y ago
  I love all the components that sage is built on, and am a huge python nerd, though I haven't tried sage itself. Mathematica just does some super cool things and encourages a different pattern of thought, which I'd love to play with.
jonknee 18y ago
At least they have a hell of an educational discount. Probably the biggest I have seen.
- llimllib 18y ago
  I learn things sometimes... do I qualify? (seriously though, I'm not a student. 2 credits at Johns Hopkins, right down the street, are about the same price as Mathematica)
  - ciscoriordan 18y ago
    Go take that class at Johns Hopkins, then click on this link: http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathforstudents http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathforstudents - $139.95 for a fully functional student version. You can also get a semester version for $44.95. "Note: Mathematica for Students is intended for students enrolled in accredited academic institutions and is for use on a student's own personal computer."
    - Dilpil 18y ago
      Of course, $139 is far too high for a student.
      - lliiffee 18y ago
        Tons of students pay $100 for books. Tons of students pay $10,000-$30,000 for tuition.
        blasdel 18y ago
        But no students pay for software
        lliiffee 18y ago
        I suppose many don't. I guess it depends on the meaning of "too high" for a student. I took it to mean "students cannot afford to pay $139" rather than "at $139, students will prefer to get the software illegally, even though they could pay if they chose to".

Alex3917 18y ago

So when do we get the version he talked about at Startup School that can find a unifying theory of physics by running cellular automata with randomly generated start conditions?

DaniFong 18y ago
In 10^10^(big number) years? :-)
- Alex3917 18y ago
  It's funny to think that the singularity, if it is coming, will produce this profound qualitative shift in human existence. And at the same time mean absolutely nothing in the face of a problem such as this.
  - LPTS 18y ago
    No singularity. You must have read to much sci-fi written by AI researchers afraid of dying and overly influenced by judeochristian conceptions of God. If you want a qualitative shift in human existence you must create it. The singularity isn't going to save us any more then beneficent aliens will solve my problems by taking me on their ship to the planet of the sex goddesses to live in bliss in their zoo.
    - Eliezer 18y ago
      Planet of the sex goddesses, got it.
      - LPTS 18y ago
        google subgenius
        Eliezer 18y ago
        Google Eliezer Yudkowsky.

vizard 18y ago

Mathematica is nice but I dont like their licensing policies. Had a huge fight with them once after I had to reinstall my OS :(

etal 18y ago

Sweet Jesus. The image-processing capability is pretty hot, as is this: ProteinData["A2M", "MoleculePlot"] It's a shame Mathematica isn't open-source; I'd love to see the code.

syntax-case 18y ago
Why? Do you think there's something special about displaying molecules? Or do you think Mathematica does it better than anything else? Try PyMOL - the most widely used molecular graphics software, probably.
- programnature 18y ago
  I think the point is that you have to type about 30 characters to get a 3d plot of the molecule of choice. Unlike M-, PyMOL doesn't have the data built-in, so you have to find, download, load etc yourself.
  - syntax-case 18y ago
    4 characters with PyMOL: Click Plugin, then PDB Load; then type 1UBQ
- etal 18y ago
  Yes, I use PyMol quite a bit. The source code is hideous, and the author likes it that way. It would take an immense effort to smoothly incorporate PyMol into a larger system like SciPy or Sage; it would be very useful if that happened, but I don't think it will any time soon. I haven't used Mathematica 7 yet, but it looks like the tools it implements in one small library are decent substitutes for what's currently implemented in several big hairy bioinformatics toolchains. Look at how we operate now -- NCBI offers a bunch of free standalone tools; BioPerl and BioPython do some good glue, and then there are a bunch of visualization tools, and we FTP copies of whatever databases we need and keep updated manually. The extensible tools each have their own extension language, so a RasMol script won't load in PyMol (the tweaks, not the PDB file). Mathematica 7 appears to offer the basic components of this in one clean, well-organized standard library, controlled by one powerful language. All that's great, but the especially interesting thing is their claim that the design of the whole system made all of this easy. The image-processing tricks and the unassuming Parallelize function seem like very specialized features, but they cobbled all of this together in, I guess, 2 years and some change, on top of a codebase that's almost 20 years old. It's like the anti-PHP -- brilliant design decisions all along that make adding new features easier, not harder. I have a feeling the Mathematica source code contains some very interesting ideas, and if it were open-source, it would be relatively easy to add additional features that seem like a big deal in existing tools.

delackner 18y ago

While I will probably never use mathematica, due to its breathtaking price, one can only wonder how many researchers the world over simply pirate it. I also doubt we will ever see Wolfram willing to set the price at a level that normal human beings can afford. Perhaps a client-server version that does all its computing back at Wolfram's servers, would give them the confidence to dabble with a sane price point...

newt0311 18y ago
researchers work in universities, almost all of which have site-wide licenses. Site-wide licenses for mathematica also start to approach reason. Its doubtful that that many researchers will have to pirate it.
- delackner 18y ago
  Universities in a lot of countries do not have budgets that can deal with even $1000 a seat.
  - dzorz 18y ago
    I can confirm this. We have a site-wide license for Matlab, but not for Mathematica. Educational version of Mathematica 7 would cost me my two monthly salaries - therefore I will pirate it.
    - listic 18y ago
      I didn't buy any, but from my point of view, Mathematica is priced just a bit lower than Matlab. Matlab quotes me $1900 for a single common license: http://www.mathworks.com/store/loginSubmitGuest.do http://www.mathworks.com/store/loginSubmitGuest.do while Mathematica is $1750: http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathematica/ http://store.wolfram.com/view/app/mathematica/ How much does site license for Matlab cost you?
      - PStamatiou 18y ago

DaniFong 18y ago

Some of this stuff is jaw droppingly awesome. But I have to say, the most useful things for me will be the discrete calculus, the new visualizations, and the enhanced typesetting and UI. Many of the new mathematical additions are very interesting but very specific. I am very happy that Mathematica 7 ships with so much data. Data processing and procurement is a perpetual burden for those in chemistry, life science and environmental science. I'll be glad if this tax has somewhat lifted it.

mattjaynes 18y ago

If you missed Wolfram's talk at Startup School you can get it at (along with the other talks): http://feeds.feedburner.com/Ycombinator-StartupSchool http://feeds.feedburner.com/Ycombinator-StartupSchool

nswanberg 18y ago
Unfortunately, the link to the Wolfram talk on Feedburner isn't working. Here's a link to the transcript of the talk (the mp3 is also available for iPod-achievers by going to the talk index): http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/talks/ycombinatorschool/ http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/talks/ycombinator... The talk is worth a read, but he doesn't give out any secrets to success ("work hard"), and note that the title of the talk is "On Starting a Long Term Company." It seems aimed at solving the problem of "How can I get the people, software, and money for my research?" rather than the problem of "How can I afford that ocean-front mansion and retire at 30?"

nswanberg 18y ago

Those of you interested in Silicon Valley trivia might note that the name Mathematica was suggested by someone named Steven Jobs: http://reference.wolfram.com/legacy/v1/contents/acknowledgments.pdf http://reference.wolfram.com/legacy/v1/contents/acknowledgme... The name is a little misleading though, as the later releases have shown Mathematica to be a great general symbolic manipulation program not just for, say, Calculus homework, but Wolfram had already used the name SMP, and the other options just didn't seem as catchy: http://www.stephenwolfram.com/scrapbook/internals/page5/3.html http://www.stephenwolfram.com/scrapbook/internals/page5/3.ht...

Create 18y ago
I always believed, that it was a shameless borrowing (as do "great artist") of Macsyma -- living on free as Maxima. Octave, Scilab and python driven C++ (e.g. Automatically Tuned Linear Algebra Software, ATLAS) can do just as good, if not the same or better. If you know what you are doing (which would be a must, anyway). ps: Steven's book is full of spin, so I guess some of them would also make it to his website and vice-versa: this is called marketing and propaganda...

syntax-case 18y ago

Mathematica's bugginess (on SGI) is what prompted me to learn "real" programming languages some years ago.

maximilian 18y ago

The upgrade for students is $75 (if you have 6). I don't think i'm gonna jump. Doesn't really seem worth it? I never use the advanced features as is. All i ever do is basic algebraic manipulations and screwy integrals.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

For $2500 it had better come as a brain implant

aswanson 18y ago

pg, any chance of negotiating a news.yc member discount?

anatyx 18y ago

I just a attended a free webinar about using Mathematica for education (http://www.wolfram.com/services/education/seminars/s01.html http://www.wolfram.com/services/education/seminars/s01.html) and the guy who was chatting with all of the attendees told me my college already had a site license. Turns out I can use Mathematica at school and at home for free and I had no idea... You might want to check if your campus has something similar set up. The Mathematica folks might be able to direct you to the right place.

schtog 18y ago

How is the programming language in Mathematica? How is it for Matlab stuff? Or perhaps it isn't for linear algebra at all? Can you write real standalone applications in Mathematica or it is solely for prototyping, analyizng and modeling?