6 ms·

I see this a lot in the rural US with wooden fences but had no idea why it was done, but I guess its for the same reason (stability). Apparently they've done it

I see this a lot in the rural US with wooden fences but had no idea why it was done, but I guess its for the same reason (stability). Apparently they've done it since the 1600s. https://www.louispage.com/blog/bid/11160/worm-fence-what-is-it https://www.louispage.com/blog/bid/11160/worm-fence-what-is-... Still, this seemed totally unecessary until I realized this mean they dont have to put any posts into the ground. No digging holes, which would be really nice when you're trying to fence up very large acreage.

Cerium 3y ago
Those fences are also popular in places where it is cold in the winter. No posts in the ground means no frost heave. A fence like that can sit unmaintained for decades before it starts to fall apart.
bin_bash 3y ago
it's not for stability, it's because it doesn't require posts so it's cheap and quick
- gowld 3y ago
  Lots of things "don't require posts so it's cheap and quick", but this version makes a stable wall.
- drtz 3y ago
  But it is for stability. Try making a straight fence with no posts and see how stable it is.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > it's not for stability, it's because it doesn't require posts That’s stability
tssva 3y ago
The park service uses this type of fencing a lot.
autoexec 3y ago
The US is so bad at naming things! A Serpentine Wall sounds better than a Worm Fence or Snake Fence. Crinkle Crankle Wall is a bit more fun than ZigZag Fence. A Ribbon Wall seems like a nice thing to have on your property vs a Battlefield Fence.
- NavinF 3y ago
  I'd much rather have a Battlefield Wall on my property in the US than a Ribbon Wall or Crinkle Crankle Wall. The latter two sound ridiculous. I really like "Serpentine Wall", but it sounds a little too technical for everyday conversation with nontechnical people
  - autoexec 3y ago
    I suppose it's subjective but Crinkle Crankle is better because it sounds so ridiculous. Ribbon Wall doesn't sound any more ridiculous than same-shaped Ribbon Candy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_candy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_candy) or Ribbon Cables (https://www.fxpstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ribbon-wire-6-core-500x500-1.jpg https://www.fxpstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ribbon-w...), and ribbons don't call to mind atrocities or human suffering. Battlefields are terrible places where horrific things happen. That's not something I'd want associated with my own property.
    - hfivivfub 3y ago
      The value in this is the historical dimension. Apparently, "crinkle-crankle" dates to 1598. So it's a pre-US term. I agree that it's not a good look to automatically prefer the military term to the "ridiculous" one. It smacks of toxic masculinity. "Crinkle-crankle" is obviously archaic, and it evokes folk art and (in the US) colonial culture. That is fairly neutral, as placenames go.
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      Crinkle crinkle wall has to be the most British sounding britishism ever. Like something that would have been a subject of serious research at the Ministry of Silly Walls.
helb 3y ago
they don't use less wood than a straight fence though :)
- shirleyquirk 3y ago
  they should be able to. same physics applies, right? poles dont have to be as thick or as deep to resist the same torque, and if you could somehow make the pales curvy/corrugated, they could be thinner, too.
  - sn9 3y ago
    Wooden fences tend to be only a plank thick, so there's no savings like there are with brick walls where the savings come from getting to build a single layer thick.
    - helb 3y ago
      Yeah exactly… I guess there might be some waviness/height/length ratio where the extra length and the absence of posts evens out.
      - sn9 3y ago
        John Cook actually goes into the math of that here: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/11/19/crinkle-crankle-calculus/ https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/11/19/crinkle-crankle-ca...
    - Maxion 3y ago
      Raw lumber is much cheaper than sawn lumber, though. It's OK to use more, as long as the volume increase and price decrease works out favorably.
gxs 3y ago
Interesting pictures. Not a complicated subject, but somehow seeing it with straight lines made it completely obvious and intuitive vs the wavy wall.
Daub 3y ago
I used to make fences in Wales, with it famously rocky ground. The fences we made were effectively straight lines which were bound at each terminal point by big posts dug into the ground and braced with side struts. Installing one of these posts could take a full day.
- summonerlf 3y ago
  Have you ever tried the wavy one? I'm curious to hear from a first hand experience
  - Daub 3y ago
    Nope. Never tried the wavey one. I can't remember hearing of wavey walls/fences until a few years ago. Talking about all this again brings back some memories. My hands freezing from digging in the rocky soil. My hands aching from swinging the club hammer I used to compress the stones around the oak post to form a foundation. Trying to start the chainsaw in cold weather. Taking the tools back to the toolshed in a squeeky-wheel wheelbarrow. All good memories. It's been forty years since I made a fence but I could do it tomorrow with no problem, and gladly.
Bluestrike2 3y ago
Not digging post holes would help, but the real time savings would be in not having to saw the logs to produce boards. It only takes a couple minutes to split the log, and would be less tiring than trying to saw the number of boards you’d need for a fence. You can also use smaller logs you’d otherwise ignore or use for firewood due to low yield when sawing. For that matter, you don’t have to worry about milling, joinery, or bringing enough nails to fasten boards. You can also use green wood without any worries. All you have to do is stack. In a world without power tools, the split-rail fence really was an ingenious design. It effectively removed the skill requirement altogether, and let you spend your time on more urgent tasks.

Cerium 3y ago

Those fences are also popular in places where it is cold in the winter. No posts in the ground means no frost heave. A fence like that can sit unmaintained for decades before it starts to fall apart.

bin_bash 3y ago

it's not for stability, it's because it doesn't require posts so it's cheap and quick

gowld 3y ago
Lots of things "don't require posts so it's cheap and quick", but this version makes a stable wall.
drtz 3y ago
But it is for stability. Try making a straight fence with no posts and see how stable it is.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> it's not for stability, it's because it doesn't require posts That’s stability

tssva 3y ago

The park service uses this type of fencing a lot.

autoexec 3y ago

The US is so bad at naming things! A Serpentine Wall sounds better than a Worm Fence or Snake Fence. Crinkle Crankle Wall is a bit more fun than ZigZag Fence. A Ribbon Wall seems like a nice thing to have on your property vs a Battlefield Fence.

NavinF 3y ago
I'd much rather have a Battlefield Wall on my property in the US than a Ribbon Wall or Crinkle Crankle Wall. The latter two sound ridiculous. I really like "Serpentine Wall", but it sounds a little too technical for everyday conversation with nontechnical people
- autoexec 3y ago
  I suppose it's subjective but Crinkle Crankle is better because it sounds so ridiculous. Ribbon Wall doesn't sound any more ridiculous than same-shaped Ribbon Candy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_candy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_candy) or Ribbon Cables (https://www.fxpstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ribbon-wire-6-core-500x500-1.jpg https://www.fxpstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/ribbon-w...), and ribbons don't call to mind atrocities or human suffering. Battlefields are terrible places where horrific things happen. That's not something I'd want associated with my own property.
  - hfivivfub 3y ago
    The value in this is the historical dimension. Apparently, "crinkle-crankle" dates to 1598. So it's a pre-US term. I agree that it's not a good look to automatically prefer the military term to the "ridiculous" one. It smacks of toxic masculinity. "Crinkle-crankle" is obviously archaic, and it evokes folk art and (in the US) colonial culture. That is fairly neutral, as placenames go.
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    Crinkle crinkle wall has to be the most British sounding britishism ever. Like something that would have been a subject of serious research at the Ministry of Silly Walls.

helb 3y ago

they don't use less wood than a straight fence though :)

shirleyquirk 3y ago
they should be able to. same physics applies, right? poles dont have to be as thick or as deep to resist the same torque, and if you could somehow make the pales curvy/corrugated, they could be thinner, too.
- sn9 3y ago
  Wooden fences tend to be only a plank thick, so there's no savings like there are with brick walls where the savings come from getting to build a single layer thick.
  - helb 3y ago
    Yeah exactly… I guess there might be some waviness/height/length ratio where the extra length and the absence of posts evens out.
    - sn9 3y ago
      John Cook actually goes into the math of that here: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/11/19/crinkle-crankle-calculus/ https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2019/11/19/crinkle-crankle-ca...
  - Maxion 3y ago
    Raw lumber is much cheaper than sawn lumber, though. It's OK to use more, as long as the volume increase and price decrease works out favorably.

gxs 3y ago

Interesting pictures. Not a complicated subject, but somehow seeing it with straight lines made it completely obvious and intuitive vs the wavy wall.

Daub 3y ago

I used to make fences in Wales, with it famously rocky ground. The fences we made were effectively straight lines which were bound at each terminal point by big posts dug into the ground and braced with side struts. Installing one of these posts could take a full day.

summonerlf 3y ago
Have you ever tried the wavy one? I'm curious to hear from a first hand experience
- Daub 3y ago
  Nope. Never tried the wavey one. I can't remember hearing of wavey walls/fences until a few years ago. Talking about all this again brings back some memories. My hands freezing from digging in the rocky soil. My hands aching from swinging the club hammer I used to compress the stones around the oak post to form a foundation. Trying to start the chainsaw in cold weather. Taking the tools back to the toolshed in a squeeky-wheel wheelbarrow. All good memories. It's been forty years since I made a fence but I could do it tomorrow with no problem, and gladly.

Bluestrike2 3y ago

Not digging post holes would help, but the real time savings would be in not having to saw the logs to produce boards. It only takes a couple minutes to split the log, and would be less tiring than trying to saw the number of boards you’d need for a fence. You can also use smaller logs you’d otherwise ignore or use for firewood due to low yield when sawing. For that matter, you don’t have to worry about milling, joinery, or bringing enough nails to fasten boards. You can also use green wood without any worries. All you have to do is stack. In a world without power tools, the split-rail fence really was an ingenious design. It effectively removed the skill requirement altogether, and let you spend your time on more urgent tasks.