8 ms·

I was always hoping that given the fact that japanese population is dropping, they will want more foreigners in this Country. Yesterday marks my first anniversa

by methou 3y ago

I was always hoping that given the fact that japanese population is dropping, they will want more foreigners in this Country. Yesterday marks my first anniversary in Japan. I love this Country and very keen to stay for naturalization based on my past experience with another non-free Country. People who has longer experience please correct me if I'm saying something stupid, what Japan stands out to me are: * Overall it's a very affordable place and people are friendly by default. * It is a free world Country if you care about freedom * People take privacy seriously as parts of their daily matters, minimal data share. (unsure about the lucrative advertising business, please enligh) * Comfortable level of tech, you can say it's low tech, but they got all the details right, and experience is great. (No aggresive behavior analysis, rare ily seen QR code for menu/ordering) And some realities to offset the love: (Ordered low to high on impact, by personal feelings) * Unfair compensations, a large majority of companies pays their employees in a Nenko System, basically your salary increments by the x years of service inside the company * HIGH welfare tax, Nenkin will take away around 10% of your PRETAX income. * Language, I love this Country and I would like to learn their culture and their language * Etiquette, the Japanese way of daily routinal interactions are very much formulated, you can take vantage of that when you are fresh off boat and trying to do basic things like shopping and lodging. But say if your goal is to integrate into their society, it's going to be a long painful journey for the talented. I got a few friends spent better half of their lives in Japan who just gave up on becoming Japanese. One of which quitted so well that he occasionally violates social norms. Bottom line: you will need a strong incentive to stay in Japan and start/move your family here, and your first experiences won't be good. So why would foreigners stay if it's next to impossible to become local. If you are doing well enough in the Country you are already within, then you definitely would miss it and go back.

theonlybutlet 3y ago
If that Nenkin pension contribution is 10%, it's actually very low relatively speaking.
- deaddodo 3y ago
  This is a difficult question to answer, really. Very few pension systems are orthogonal to others and so it's hard to equate. The US Social Security system (what I assume they are comparing to) is 6.2% (or 12.4% for self-employed, as they are their own employer and contribute both shares) for 420mos; at max contribution, this comes out to 2572usd/mo at age 62 up to 4555usd/mo if you wait til age 70. Meanwhile, to max out an Irish state pension, you would need to contribute 13keur/yr for atleast 240mos (longer at a lower contribution), which comes out to ~1076eur/mo starting at age 67. I don't know what the Japanese system is like, but the point is that there are multiple variables to take into account. Length of contribution, type (tax rate and pre or post, or flat) + amount of contribution, when you qualify to receive it, recipient stipulations (can you work or not, does the rate change, does the age change, etc). Based on some back of envelop comparisons from my little research of the Japanese system (what wikipedia provides, since I can't read Japanese); it would seem that the US system is a little fairer (or, at least, generally equivalent) for W2 employees: a lower rate and contribution requirement [6.2% vs 10%], with a shorter term requirement [35 vs 40 years] but a slightly lower payout at a later age [4.5kusd@70 vs 5.5kusd@65] with a lower overall tax burden [nominal 17% vs flat 25%]. But both are a fair bit better than the Irish system. Please feel free to correct me if those are off, however. Even those are just assumptions based on you making no private retirement contributions and you working a white collar job and then going full state pensioner at the full retirement age. If any variables change, it can drastically effect the payout/taxrate. So it's almost impossible to fully compare.
  - 6510 3y ago
    > impossible to fully compare. Reminds me of some (Dutch) people who made a chart of % taxation (including every kind) vs income by using real world data... It came out like white noise. Apparently if you make as many rules as possible to make it all as fair as possible you end up with the lamest possible system - even worse than a lottery.
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      This sounds like exactly something I would imagine Dutch people to make.
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]
otabdeveloper4 3y ago
> they will want more foreigners in this Country At that point it won't really be Japan anymore, and where will you go?
- coldtea 3y ago
  Countries are just landmasses and real estate, didn't you know? Local population can be relegated to a minority and what makes Japan alluring today will still exist just fine. There's nothing about a particular people, with a particular culture, and a particular approach, having built a country of a particular outlook. Besides, we can improve the norms we don't like. And of course, we totally deserve to live there, after all we've watched all these anime and ate so much sushi...
flohofwoe 3y ago
> Unfair compensations, a large majority of companies pays their employees in a Nenko System, basically your salary increments by the x years of service inside the company That sounds like an exceptionally fair compensation system to be honest.
- highwaylights 3y ago
  Probably feels less fair if you’re just in the door. It’s also going to be another disincentive to migration. A specialist with 20 years in a field isn’t going to move there with their whole family and take a new job for graduate money.
  - ramchip 3y ago
    A mid-career hire would be paid in line with their age rather than years of service.
- 6510 3y ago
  Ideally you would figure out the exact cost or price of things. Putting a widget in a box should cost x. Perhaps a an enlightening hypothetical would be to charge you for your hamburger based on the number of years the employee worked there. Everyone would be like: But last time I paid half that? Also, why did it take so long? If there is actual experience one should bother to measure it as well as productivity. Those who do gain experience are probably missing out if it is measured in years. I guess one has to see enough really hard working highly educated intelligent young people in a place that also houses slacking geezers who managed to learn nothing over decades. They are basically sitting there waiting for others to earn their living. If it is a national thing you wont have the endless flow of new hires who cant wait to get the f out of there.
thriftwy 3y ago
You forgot to mention the part where/how it would be great for the Japanese population. As a citizen of a country where a lot of foreigners move in, it's not great. And we have nowhere the level of quality of life of Japan to fall from.
- isykt 3y ago
  Your statement is true for basically every country… except the US.
  - methou 3y ago
    > except the US. And Singapore!
    - isykt 3y ago
      Singapore is a very interesting case because its multiculturalism is less organic and more top down. The upside? There are no slums. The downside? There is very little individual freedom, and punishment for crimes can be brutal. Like caning for vandalism or the death penalty for drug trafficking. And yet! Singapore is consistently ranked as one of the happiest countries in the world. This contradicts the common western association of personal liberty correlating with happiness.
Sol- 3y ago
Perhaps the etiquette and formulaic interactions are important for the friendliness and perceived orderliness of the country? So I wonder how much of the good stuff that people like about Japan you can have without the (from a western perspective) restrictive society. Not to say that there's not always room for improvement along many dimensions.
isykt 3y ago
Japan is a totalitarian state, with the enforcement run by individuals. If you violate social norms, including not looking or sounding Japanese enough, you will be excluded. You could become naturalized there, but you will never be Japanese, and you will never be treated as an equal.
- anovikov 3y ago
  I think it's only while there are few foreigners there. They will have to open up and because country is good, just lacking young population, Japanese will quickly become the minority and those issues will be solved.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Yes, it's not like a country is it's people and their culture and achievements stemming from those, and that if the "country is good" it's because of that. No, a country is just a landmass, and when "Japanese become the minority" that would be a problem solved (the problem being entitled people from outside the country wanting in).
    - anovikov 3y ago
      Well, in any case, there are only 3 ways out of it: - Japan becomes an almost empty and stateless or only having a nominal state, landmass with very little population and no functioning economy (no transport network, no electricity grid etc). Unlikely - it's climate is too good. - It gets militarily taken over as soon it's too weak to defend itself. Likely but undesirable because you don't get to pick who takes you over and that will be by definition someone hostile. - Immigration and replacement. This is the most beneficial of the realistic options. Because you get to pick the people who replaces you.
      - Shaanie 3y ago
        This assumes that the trend of a decreasing population is a fact which cannot be reversed, which seems quite defeatist.
Tozen 3y ago
For any country, there are still going to be both positives and negatives. The more money you have and make, often the easier things will be for you. If you are rich, a lot of surprising places can be attractive (not just Japan), for various different reasons. Also beware, there is also a difference between official propaganda for tourist dollars and reality, so various parties can seek to drown out any dispelling of myths or hide facets of how things are. * People are friendly by default This can be a common mistake made by tourists (or short time visitors). There is a difference between polite for money, cultural fake politeness, and actually more friendly and welcoming than average. Hotel staff can be very polite (as trained to be for money), but that doesn't mean random people on the street, clubs, housing agents, or business owners actually like every or any foreigners. And the extent of politeness or friendliness shown can depend on skin color, known country of origin, or language spoken. * Very affordable place This is quite laughable. It depends on your salary and where you are from, but clearly there are cheaper countries in the world than Japan. If you are rich or nearly so, many countries are "affordable". * Non-free Country versus free world Country Freedom is relative. For instance, in Japan, police can arrest, question/interrogate (some have claimed torture) you, and hold you for weeks without a lawyer (nor allow you to call one). Compared to other countries, this is quite draconian and backwards. Where for others, that there is any process where you aren't killed at whim or have no to little means to seek true justice, means greater "freedom". * Comfortable level of tech While this is quite true, Japan is not the only country that possesses significant technology. The level of street cleanliness, sewer system (like open sewers), garbage collection (dropped on street or in cans), design and width of city streets, safe train systems (protecting passengers from falling/jumping onto tracks), etc... These points all add up and how "comfortable", can be a matter of where you are from and what you were used to.
- Pooge 3y ago
  > This is quite laughable. It depends on your salary and where you are from, but clearly there are cheaper countries in the world than Japan. If you are rich or nearly so, many countries are "affordable". I lived in Japan for a year until June 2023 and I agree with OP. It obviously depends on your salary -- Japanese people's is pretty low compared to expats -- but Tokyo is still pretty cheap compared to even Geneva or Paris. Restaurants are cheap (compared to anywhere in Europe), groceries is not that expensive and cinemas are nothing compared to where I live. What offset this are accommodation and fruits (yeah, they're very expensive). Outside of big cities? Don't even get me started, you get all this plus cheap rent and could even have local-grown fruits and vegetables. I actually plan to retire to Japan if I ever live this long. > Freedom is relative [...] I agree with your on that point. Police is at worst corrupt and at best useless in this country. I'm actually of the firm belief that if they were better trained, crime in Japan would "rise" (as in "statistically there would be more crime") because more of it would be discovered or reported.
jesterson 3y ago
It's clearly your first anniversary, given the things you have highlighted. As times goes by, you will surely change your mind if the goal is to be intellectually honest. Japan will never want more foreigners in the country. Even if the population shrinks substantially. And it's a right thing to do - a lot of cogs in japanese society rotate well only when all links use same predicaments. It will never work with foreginers en masse. They rather lock the country again like Tokugawa did long time ago. As I am getting older, I support the decision to protect society from destructive traits that come with western societies more and more.
anigbrowl 3y ago
One of which quitted so well that he occasionally violates social norms. What does this mean?

by methou 3y ago

theonlybutlet 3y ago

If that Nenkin pension contribution is 10%, it's actually very low relatively speaking.

deaddodo 3y ago
This is a difficult question to answer, really. Very few pension systems are orthogonal to others and so it's hard to equate. The US Social Security system (what I assume they are comparing to) is 6.2% (or 12.4% for self-employed, as they are their own employer and contribute both shares) for 420mos; at max contribution, this comes out to 2572usd/mo at age 62 up to 4555usd/mo if you wait til age 70. Meanwhile, to max out an Irish state pension, you would need to contribute 13keur/yr for atleast 240mos (longer at a lower contribution), which comes out to ~1076eur/mo starting at age 67. I don't know what the Japanese system is like, but the point is that there are multiple variables to take into account. Length of contribution, type (tax rate and pre or post, or flat) + amount of contribution, when you qualify to receive it, recipient stipulations (can you work or not, does the rate change, does the age change, etc). Based on some back of envelop comparisons from my little research of the Japanese system (what wikipedia provides, since I can't read Japanese); it would seem that the US system is a little fairer (or, at least, generally equivalent) for W2 employees: a lower rate and contribution requirement [6.2% vs 10%], with a shorter term requirement [35 vs 40 years] but a slightly lower payout at a later age [4.5kusd@70 vs 5.5kusd@65] with a lower overall tax burden [nominal 17% vs flat 25%]. But both are a fair bit better than the Irish system. Please feel free to correct me if those are off, however. Even those are just assumptions based on you making no private retirement contributions and you working a white collar job and then going full state pensioner at the full retirement age. If any variables change, it can drastically effect the payout/taxrate. So it's almost impossible to fully compare.
- 6510 3y ago
  > impossible to fully compare. Reminds me of some (Dutch) people who made a chart of % taxation (including every kind) vs income by using real world data... It came out like white noise. Apparently if you make as many rules as possible to make it all as fair as possible you end up with the lamest possible system - even worse than a lottery.
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    This sounds like exactly something I would imagine Dutch people to make.

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

[dead]

otabdeveloper4 3y ago

> they will want more foreigners in this Country At that point it won't really be Japan anymore, and where will you go?

coldtea 3y ago
Countries are just landmasses and real estate, didn't you know? Local population can be relegated to a minority and what makes Japan alluring today will still exist just fine. There's nothing about a particular people, with a particular culture, and a particular approach, having built a country of a particular outlook. Besides, we can improve the norms we don't like. And of course, we totally deserve to live there, after all we've watched all these anime and ate so much sushi...

flohofwoe 3y ago

> Unfair compensations, a large majority of companies pays their employees in a Nenko System, basically your salary increments by the x years of service inside the company That sounds like an exceptionally fair compensation system to be honest.

highwaylights 3y ago
Probably feels less fair if you’re just in the door. It’s also going to be another disincentive to migration. A specialist with 20 years in a field isn’t going to move there with their whole family and take a new job for graduate money.
- ramchip 3y ago
  A mid-career hire would be paid in line with their age rather than years of service.
6510 3y ago
Ideally you would figure out the exact cost or price of things. Putting a widget in a box should cost x. Perhaps a an enlightening hypothetical would be to charge you for your hamburger based on the number of years the employee worked there. Everyone would be like: But last time I paid half that? Also, why did it take so long? If there is actual experience one should bother to measure it as well as productivity. Those who do gain experience are probably missing out if it is measured in years. I guess one has to see enough really hard working highly educated intelligent young people in a place that also houses slacking geezers who managed to learn nothing over decades. They are basically sitting there waiting for others to earn their living. If it is a national thing you wont have the endless flow of new hires who cant wait to get the f out of there.

thriftwy 3y ago

You forgot to mention the part where/how it would be great for the Japanese population. As a citizen of a country where a lot of foreigners move in, it's not great. And we have nowhere the level of quality of life of Japan to fall from.

isykt 3y ago
Your statement is true for basically every country… except the US.
- methou 3y ago
  > except the US. And Singapore!
  - isykt 3y ago
    Singapore is a very interesting case because its multiculturalism is less organic and more top down. The upside? There are no slums. The downside? There is very little individual freedom, and punishment for crimes can be brutal. Like caning for vandalism or the death penalty for drug trafficking. And yet! Singapore is consistently ranked as one of the happiest countries in the world. This contradicts the common western association of personal liberty correlating with happiness.

Sol- 3y ago

Perhaps the etiquette and formulaic interactions are important for the friendliness and perceived orderliness of the country? So I wonder how much of the good stuff that people like about Japan you can have without the (from a western perspective) restrictive society. Not to say that there's not always room for improvement along many dimensions.

isykt 3y ago

Japan is a totalitarian state, with the enforcement run by individuals. If you violate social norms, including not looking or sounding Japanese enough, you will be excluded. You could become naturalized there, but you will never be Japanese, and you will never be treated as an equal.

anovikov 3y ago
I think it's only while there are few foreigners there. They will have to open up and because country is good, just lacking young population, Japanese will quickly become the minority and those issues will be solved.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Yes, it's not like a country is it's people and their culture and achievements stemming from those, and that if the "country is good" it's because of that. No, a country is just a landmass, and when "Japanese become the minority" that would be a problem solved (the problem being entitled people from outside the country wanting in).
  - anovikov 3y ago
    Well, in any case, there are only 3 ways out of it: - Japan becomes an almost empty and stateless or only having a nominal state, landmass with very little population and no functioning economy (no transport network, no electricity grid etc). Unlikely - it's climate is too good. - It gets militarily taken over as soon it's too weak to defend itself. Likely but undesirable because you don't get to pick who takes you over and that will be by definition someone hostile. - Immigration and replacement. This is the most beneficial of the realistic options. Because you get to pick the people who replaces you.
    - Shaanie 3y ago
      This assumes that the trend of a decreasing population is a fact which cannot be reversed, which seems quite defeatist.

Tozen 3y ago

For any country, there are still going to be both positives and negatives. The more money you have and make, often the easier things will be for you. If you are rich, a lot of surprising places can be attractive (not just Japan), for various different reasons. Also beware, there is also a difference between official propaganda for tourist dollars and reality, so various parties can seek to drown out any dispelling of myths or hide facets of how things are. * People are friendly by default This can be a common mistake made by tourists (or short time visitors). There is a difference between polite for money, cultural fake politeness, and actually more friendly and welcoming than average. Hotel staff can be very polite (as trained to be for money), but that doesn't mean random people on the street, clubs, housing agents, or business owners actually like every or any foreigners. And the extent of politeness or friendliness shown can depend on skin color, known country of origin, or language spoken. * Very affordable place This is quite laughable. It depends on your salary and where you are from, but clearly there are cheaper countries in the world than Japan. If you are rich or nearly so, many countries are "affordable". * Non-free Country versus free world Country Freedom is relative. For instance, in Japan, police can arrest, question/interrogate (some have claimed torture) you, and hold you for weeks without a lawyer (nor allow you to call one). Compared to other countries, this is quite draconian and backwards. Where for others, that there is any process where you aren't killed at whim or have no to little means to seek true justice, means greater "freedom". * Comfortable level of tech While this is quite true, Japan is not the only country that possesses significant technology. The level of street cleanliness, sewer system (like open sewers), garbage collection (dropped on street or in cans), design and width of city streets, safe train systems (protecting passengers from falling/jumping onto tracks), etc... These points all add up and how "comfortable", can be a matter of where you are from and what you were used to.

Pooge 3y ago
> This is quite laughable. It depends on your salary and where you are from, but clearly there are cheaper countries in the world than Japan. If you are rich or nearly so, many countries are "affordable". I lived in Japan for a year until June 2023 and I agree with OP. It obviously depends on your salary -- Japanese people's is pretty low compared to expats -- but Tokyo is still pretty cheap compared to even Geneva or Paris. Restaurants are cheap (compared to anywhere in Europe), groceries is not that expensive and cinemas are nothing compared to where I live. What offset this are accommodation and fruits (yeah, they're very expensive). Outside of big cities? Don't even get me started, you get all this plus cheap rent and could even have local-grown fruits and vegetables. I actually plan to retire to Japan if I ever live this long. > Freedom is relative [...] I agree with your on that point. Police is at worst corrupt and at best useless in this country. I'm actually of the firm belief that if they were better trained, crime in Japan would "rise" (as in "statistically there would be more crime") because more of it would be discovered or reported.

jesterson 3y ago

It's clearly your first anniversary, given the things you have highlighted. As times goes by, you will surely change your mind if the goal is to be intellectually honest. Japan will never want more foreigners in the country. Even if the population shrinks substantially. And it's a right thing to do - a lot of cogs in japanese society rotate well only when all links use same predicaments. It will never work with foreginers en masse. They rather lock the country again like Tokugawa did long time ago. As I am getting older, I support the decision to protect society from destructive traits that come with western societies more and more.

anigbrowl 3y ago

One of which quitted so well that he occasionally violates social norms. What does this mean?