16 ms·
Mastercard demands US cannabis shops stop accepting debit cards
- mikece 3y agoDefund MasterCard — and any other financial institution who refuses to do business with a lawfully operating business.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoStill brand new, but alternate real time rails are available [1] [2]. I know that finding banking in the cannabis space can be...challenging. Hopefully policy gets fixed soon [3]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36801491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36801491 (FedNow Is Live) [2] https://www.axios.com/2023/07/20/federal-reserve-fednow-payment https://www.axios.com/2023/07/20/federal-reserve-fednow-paym... [3] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1996 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1996
- latchkey 3y agoTo be fair, this is just debt cards. While I don't approve of them blocking this at all, I am guessing there was also a bit of fraud involved, even with the pin numbers. On a more personal level, I'm not sure why people would use anything other than cash to buy weed... who wants these companies tracking you anyway. Update: The comments below prompted me to look a bit further into my fraud speculation... quick google search found this: https://digboston.com/no-more-atms-is-the-smell-of-money-coming-to-a-weed-store-near-you/ https://digboston.com/no-more-atms-is-the-smell-of-money-com... Cash back is a laundering problem.
- ribosometronome 3y agoNothing in the article indicates Mastercard's concern is fraud nor does it sound like it came to their notice by way of fraud.
- nocoiner 3y agoThanks for the link. I was scratching my head trying to figure out the evident disparate treatment (Why not Visa? Why not credit cards?) but that explained a lot.
- crooked-v 3y agoThe basic problem here is that it's not 'lawful', it's just mostly quietly ignored by the feds because people would riot if they actively did much about it. It's hardly surprising that big financial companies would want to be completely disassociated from the situation.
- Simulacra 3y agoI disagree. You can buy marijuana openly in a very nice brick and mortar store less than six blocks from the White House, and 8 blocks from United States Capitol. It's openly advertised. This is just a government trying to maintain control.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoThat might be true but it is still illegal federally- so it's not "lawful".
- techdragon 3y agoAn un-enforced felony is still a federal crime, you just know your not going to get in trouble for it… The thing is MasterCard and Visa as part of being allowed by various laws, are not allowed to facilitate people making money from committing federal crimes… which the businesses selling (state) legal cannabis are doing. It’s pretty simple. They either need federal legislation to say it’s ok for them to be doing this, or it needs to stop being a federal crime, otherwise they are legally required to do exactly what they are doing. By your right about it being government control stuff, psychological resistance to letting go of the War on Drugs is pretty high, and unless it changes it’s going to remain in the current status quo until enough of them get too old to hold their seats in the House/Senate and new people with less fossilised opinions get to vote on legislation regarding the topic.
- flangola7 3y agoThe law exists in its enforcement. Many laws on paper do not exist. Many laws that are not on paper do exist.
- resolutebat 3y agoWell, that's the whole problem, from the feds' point of view they are not operating lawfully. I'm no fan of the Visa/MC duopoly but from a legal point of view they don't really have a choice here.
- deadfoxygrandpa 3y agocannabis shops are illegal everywhere in the united states, though. federal law supersedes state law
- Simulacra 3y agoTry explaining that to the literally hundreds of marijuana shops, even in Maryland, and the District of Columbia openly selling..
- deadfoxygrandpa 3y agotheyre running the risk of getting into serious legal trouble with the feds. which mastercard apparently doesnt want to do
- mikece 3y agoShow me in the Constitution where FedGov has the authority to dictate drug law or policy that doesn’t cross State Lines. (Spoiler: it’s not there.)
- lxgr 3y agoNot a lawyer, but I’d strongly suspect that funds flows crossing state lines and using Federal Reserve wire transfers for settlement would make Fed jurisdiction quite possible.
- mikece 3y agoMight surprise you to learn there is precedent to refute that. Flow of money isn’t material to the law: flow of good and staying within State boundaries is the point.
- semiquaver 3y agoWhat precedent? Wickard v. Filburn (1942) pretty much blew away any limitation on the federal government’s use of the commerce clause. In that case even a farmer’s subsistence crop of wheat for personal use was found to be in violation of a federal wheat quota because such activity in aggregate could hypothetically affect national prices. If that can be regulated as interstate commerce surely all cannabis production and consumption can as well.
- jojobas 3y agoDo you mean wikileaks, kiwifarms or pornhub?
- jesterson 3y agoYou probably never dealt with payment processing - otherwise you'd know nearly all payment processing reject and close account of perfectly fine legally operating businesses. And very often without any explanations. Sometimes even without releasing acquired funds, like the last street robber (looking at paypal). Let aside saying that whole industry is drowning in endless useless KYCs, often requiring documents on your grand grand mother, may gods treat her soul well. I can go on and on, but that's the gist of it.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoIt is really irritating that debit cards get treated as second class payment. It was particularly galling that the IRS wouldn't accept them as ID confirmation for corona stimulus. Ultimately, US debit cards can use the same credit charge rails. It's just silly turf wars that make them sporadically unusable.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> debit cards get treated as second class payment In what way?
- latchkey 3y agoUsually the processing fee is passed onto the user.
- vajrabum 3y agoLegal tender for all debts public and private.
- lxgr 3y agoCredit cards aren’t legal tender either. And making cards legal tender would be quite absurd, since it would require anyone being owed any money to get a terminal and card acceptance contract in case their debtor decides to collect some credit card points.
- callalex 3y agoThe key word is “debts”. A purchase is not a debt.
- _v7gu 3y agoOnly technically, a purchase is two debts: delivery if the good and delivery of the money.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
- Scubabear68 3y agoCannabis businesses and banking and payments is a real land mine right now. It is still illegal at the Federal level, and the States all have different laws. What companies are trying to do is ensure transactions don’t potentially cross into a realm where the Feds or a State where cannabis is still illegal could potentially claim jurisdiction and go after the banks / payment companies. Some banks and other financial institutions are trying to court these businesses, but they have to do it with carefully vetted business structures and infrastructure to keep them as legally safe as possible.
- chiph 3y agoStory time: A former coworker's brother got hired in Colorado as a dispensary's first CFO. He soon discovered that employees were making cash pickups every day from their locations using their personal cars - which isn't good for the personal safety of the employees, and way too tempting for theft by the employees. He called a couple of armored car companies - none of which wanted his business. They were concerned over the possibility of mingling his cash with that of other businesses, and the banks (who were their main customers) objecting. Banks, being federally regulated, are not allowed to take deposits from cannabis businesses, even accidentally. So he started a subsidiary armored car business that only served the cannabis market.
- Scubabear68 3y agoOne of the banks I have worked with have done something similar, they are targeting cannabis businesses entirely through a dedicated subsidiary that is firewalled from the rest of the organization.
- CameronNemo 3y agoSo he started a subsidiary armored car business that only served the cannabis market. Which promptly went bankrupt when he got repeatedly robbed by the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department. https://abc7.com/fbi-san-bernardino-county-sheriffs-department-new-lawsuit-marijuana-dispensaries/11530204/ https://abc7.com/fbi-san-bernardino-county-sheriffs-departme...
- Simulacra 3y agoJust legalize it already. How many states have to legalize it before the federal government gives up this pointless war on marijuana?
- thepaulthomson 3y agoThis feels like a step back in the opposite direction. Surely they've assessed the cost of lobbying the government vs the loss of revenue from banning payments?
- latchkey 3y agohttps://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/987327301875650561 https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/987327301875650561 "THREAD: It’s official. Today, I am formally announcing my plan to decriminalize marijuana at the federal level. It’s time we allow states, once and for all, to have the power to decide what works best for them."
- godelski 3y agoTo save people a click, Schumer posted this on 4/20 of 2018...
- nebula8804 3y agoAh typical Democrats bread and butter: theatrics
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- thefurdrake 3y agoAt least it's not genocide :)
- godelski 3y ago> Ah typical Democrats Name me any party who's modus operandi isn't akin to Kabuki theater
- nebula8804 3y agoThe Republicans are pretty clear in what they want to ruin no hiding behind the curtain. That sort of honesty is something. They are terrible but at least they dont really play as many games as Democrats. They scare you into voting for Democrats and then the Democrats disappoint you so much that you stop voting. Thats how the system works.
- 3y ago
- godelski 3y agoFor the love of god, just fucking legalize it. - 59% of Americans believe it should be legal for recreational and medical - 30% believe should be legal for medical only - 10% don't want legalization ([0] for source) At the very least decriminalize it and reduce the schedule. Let states handle it if you want. Just do SOMETHING. Clearly our representatives are not aligned with our values. The only age group that doesn't support it is 75+ (18% rep, 30% ind, 51% dem). House's median age: 58, Senate's: 65 [1] I don't care what side of the isle you sit on, there is an abundance of issues that the people are in agreement upon, and have been for years, and our politicians still fight against and claim it is the other side preventing them from resolving. The party isn't the issue, it's who's hosting. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/22/americans-overwhelmingly-say-marijuana-should-be-legal-for-medical-or-recreational-use/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/22/americans... [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/01/30/house-gets-younger-senate-gets-older-a-look-at-the-age-and-generation-of-lawmakers-in-the-118th-congress/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/01/30/house-get...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> our politicians still fight against and claim it is the other side preventing them from resolving. The party isn't the issue, it's who's hosting It could also be the guests. A bill was entered into the last Congress [1]. It failed to generate excitement. A lighter version has been entered into this one [2]. If you care about this issue, call or write to your electeds and let them know this is something that could motivate you to turn out to their next primary or general. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3617 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3617 [2] https://joyce.house.gov/posts/joyce-jeffries-reintroduce-bipartisan-legislation-to-prepare-for-inevitable-end-to-federal-cannabis-prohibition# https://joyce.house.gov/posts/joyce-jeffries-reintroduce-bip...
- godelski 3y agoSure, I'm not going to say there aren't plenty of guests at the problems. But the hosts are making a lot of rules that are wildly held as unpopular and "dumb." I'm not surprised when guests get rowdy when hosts are treating them poorly and enforcing weird rules. Fwiw, I do contact my representatives about multiple issues.
- cudgy 3y agoVisa should immediately make a statement that they will not discriminate against purchases made at legal merchants allowed to operate in states. This is a great opportunity for Visa to gain favor amongst the many people that do not appreciate payment processor restricting legal purchases. Anyone that says the Feds will take them to task for it are bringing up a red herring. The Feds have effectively done nothing yet about legal cannabis shops. Why the sudden move by Mastercard?
- callalex 3y agoI think you should learn more about the extensive history of Visa banning business verticals from its payment network. They are extremely conservative. I won’t provide a specific source in this case because the phenomenon is so widespread that I don’t want to pre-bias your learning adventure.
- cudgy 3y agoOk. What’s to stop them from changing? Seems like a missed opportunity given that around 70% of US is in favor of legalization.
- bratgpttamer 3y agoBankers gonna banker
- h2odragon 3y agoGive merchants an excuse to avoid credit card processor fees, and give the customers someone other than the shop to blame for it? Is an ill wind indeed that blows no good. If there was some CBDC scheme that worked at all; how long would the credit cards last? They'd lose so much of the business the currently have as the default electronic payment system. Perhaps that has something to do with how hard it has been to get digital banking / payments to happen for the last 20 years?
- figglestar 3y agoThis is maybe indirectly a good thing. Cash has a lot of advantages from a privacy perspective and I feel like it has lost a lot of luster with younger people in general. This may keep it alive. Another poster mentioned that buying weed with cash is just a good idea as having credit card transactions at Bill's weed shop forever on your permanent record isn't a good idea.
- callalex 3y agoThere is no privacy in cannabis transactions, as the state legalization laws require extensive reporting, retention (!), and verification of identity for every sale. It’s not like alcohol sale laws where ID is only required at point of sale for age verification, the seller must keep a complete copy of identification on file for every customer/sale.
- matthewdgreen 3y agoYes, but those records live with the state and not the Federal government. This matters a lot, particularly for people who may need to undergo Federal background checks.
- refurb 3y agoWhere is that? CA doesn’t require verification of identity.
- throwawaymobule 3y agoI think CA expressly forbids it now, since loyalty-programmes were turning into a privacy risk.
- refurb 3y agoBut they never required it in the first place. ID was checked for age when you entered stores. After that, you can pay cash. It’s anonymous.
- 3y ago
- callalex 3y agoAn important bit of context for people here who have not purchased cannabis with a card: no cannabis seller can accept debit cards as a payment method. Instead they can certify their machines as mobile ATM providers that just happen to let you withdraw an amount of cash that just happens to be approximately the same amount of money you might happen to want to pay to the person holding the mobile ATM terminal plus a modest tip. (Yes, really, this is how the industry functions).
- jochem9 3y agoMaybe I shouldn't give them any ideas, but cannabis is still technically illegal in the Netherlands to the point that coffeeshops (euphemism for cannabis dispensaries) cannot buy their stock legally (growing is prosecuted) or charge certain taxes like VAT. Yet almost all accept card payments, including Mastercard. For some reason this is an American problem.
- anonzzzies 3y agoMaybe the difference is that the shops are allowed to sell it? When I was young, many decades ago, I had hoopt that our gedoogbeleid would turn into full legality, but ah well.
- onetokeoverthe 3y ago[dead]
- Crontab 3y agoI stopped at a dispensary while visiting Illinois and they were only accepting cash there. I assumed that the banking and taxes were the reason why.
- exabrial 3y agoThis shows why cash is so important… fight to keep cash alive everyone, especially in the next coming years with the inevitable federal digital coins.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- anononaut 3y agoI don't disagree in the shortest term, but remember it can easily be inflated (deliberately) into oblivion such that carrying a valuable amount is impossible. The logical extension of this sentiment is a gold backed currency. While we're at it, end the Fed.
- exabrial 3y agoWell said.
- landemva 3y agoWe already have gold and silver coins minted by the government. Why not start with these? https://catalog.usmint.gov/coins/coin-programs/american-eagle-coins https://catalog.usmint.gov/coins/coin-programs/american-eagl... Dealers will sell boxes of 500 silver eagles for around $18,000.
- mdrzn 3y agoWeird, is this a US thing only? If I recall correctly, I paid for weed with my VISA debit card both in The Netherland and Spain without any issues.
- bratgpttamer 3y agoAs far as I've heard, the rationale is that it's still federally illegal. Many dispensaries get around it by using some kind of "ATM mode" on the keypads, where they round up your purchase to the nearest $10 then give you change.
- 1MachineElf 3y agoCash and debit are the only forms of payment accepted at Maryland retail dispensaries.
- joker_minmax 3y agoKeep cash alive. I wouldn't pay with card at a dispensary anyway because someone would see it on your statement and use it to make decisions about you. Stay cautious. It is annoying that Mastercard are like they are, but it's a convenience issue more than a liberty issue to me.
- nosmokewhereiam 3y agoI've worked throughout cannabis for 7 years after a cyber defense background. I've never thought about this. Future employers and anyone who buys such background data knows I've partaken.
- mplewis 3y agoMost people using cash at a dispensary are using the ATM at a dispensary too.