6 ms·

While I'm glad that they took the time to hold support's feet to the fire over this, doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. Seldom will

While I'm glad that they took the time to hold support's feet to the fire over this, doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". You're not going to get the "Wow, that is our bad, we'll retool our entire production line to account for that issue that nobody else complains about and send you one as soon as it's ready, thank you" that you so desire.

MBCook 3y ago
Support can’t do anything, but they are often your only chance to get what you want: the message passed to someone who might be able to in the future. That’s what the rep said they would do here. And sadly that’s the most you can ask for.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Then you don't bother with the company and report it straight to the regulators. Losing that sweet CE sticker will make them move.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Not implementing USB-PD could cause that to be yanked in a product.l? Maybe these aren’t sold in Europe though.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I think the issue is worse than not implementing USB-PD, it won't charge at all when plugged into a usb-c port, thus not complying with the usb-c spec while having a usb-c port. I'm no lawyer but the author says it's illegal in some jurisdictions. In your declaration of conformity you have to list which standards you conform to, and IEC 62680-1-3 would be one of them. I suppose if you found to be lying on your declaration there would be consequences.
mtlynch 3y ago
I've sometimes been able to escalate to the right people and effect change, even when I have to go through a seemingly uncaring customer support team. I was inspired by patio11's "Identity Theft, Credit Reports, and You."[0] It changed the way I raise disputes with companies as a consumer, and it's gotten me good results. The tl; dr is that large organizations have things they're afraid of, and they typically have processes in place to prevent them from happening. If you figure out what the company is afraid of, tie your grievance to that fear, and it will pressure the company to resolve your issue. With credit reporting agencies, they're afraid of regulatory incidents. If you give signals that you're gathering evidence for a complaint to regulators, they'll work hard to resolve your issue. Other companies are afraid of a complaint to a distributor or the potential for a lawsuit. They're usually afraid of something, and if you can figure out what it is, you can get the attention of people with the power to resolve the issue. [0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  So; in this specific case, if they have a USB-IF trademarked logo or icon on their device or packaging, then maybe the USB-IF could come along to put some pressure to get a better outcome? I've seen cheap devices with USB ports --- but no logo. Probably for this very reason.
  - overnight5349 3y ago
    The USB logo is pretty well pointless. All you're paying for is a license for the logo. Despite USB-IF's efforts to associate that logo with "good" or "safe" or even "compliant" USB devices, I doubt that many consumers know or care. Part of the reason is that their licensing is pretty pricey unless you're already at the mass manufacturing stage. You have to pay an annual fee for the logo, an annual fee for the VID, and you have to pay to get your widget certified. All so you can use a logo that consumers don't know or care about. On the other hand, you can implement a USB device without paying a dime to USB-IF. It's super annoying without your own VID, but that's often not even necessary. So we get cheap Chinese devices with no certification because why would they even bother?
_yb2s 3y ago
Great comment… It makes me appreciate that last year I bought a part for my car that didn’t work great but was ok. They said exactly that- they would gear up to manufacture a better one and get back to me. About 8 months later I got two redesigned parts free in the mail and got to keep the initial one.
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  If this is True, then definitely name the company! This is excellent customer service!
mike_d 3y ago
> doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. A waste of time for both parties, because the author is wrong. As Wikipedia helpfully points out: "The designation C refers only to the connector's physical configuration or form factor and should not be confused with the connector's specific capabilities" From the write up it looks like he was able to get it working with the minimum 3A required by the cable spec. You don't actually have to support C-to-C cables if you choose to not to communicate with the e-marker.
- ericswpark 3y ago
  Hi, author here. The quote you mentioned from Wikipedia indeed says that devices don't have to implement all the capabilities of the connector. However, further down, it says the following: > USB-C devices may optionally provide or consume bus power currents of 1.5 A and 3.0 A (at 5 V) in addition to baseline bus power provision; power sources can either advertise increased USB current through the configuration channel, or they can implement the full USB Power Delivery specification using both BMC-coded configuration line and legacy BFSK-coded VBUS line. And further down: > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C As the device doesn't implement the full USB PD specs, it must advertise that it wants power through the CC (configuration channel) pins. This is part of the specifications and it must be properly implemented.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    > > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. Yup. You are referring to the USB 2.0 spec there, not the USB-C spec. If you follow the citation it in turn seems to be citing (not explicitly) the USB-PD spec.
    - ericswpark 3y ago
      It's a remote that charges via the USB-C port. If it doesn't follow USB 2.0 spec, or the USB-PD spec, or any spec associated with the type-C port, how is it supposed to get power from the host device/charger?
duxup 3y ago
Worked in support for a long time. Very true. The real trick is trying to get the support guy to tell you what to do to get the right attention ... IF they know. I used to do that all the time when I did big time networking gear support. "I, the support guy, can't just send you a new router (price like $200k+), that's just the policy, I gotta do X, Y, Z. That will take a bit of time and here is how that works ____ . But if you can get _____ to tell me to do it, I'll do it." Now as a support guy you have to know the lay of the land before you deliver that line... but I was lucky enough to know and that org had good policies and so on. What is AMAZING is some customers didn't realize that I just gave them the route they needed to go to get exactly what they wanted and they'd complain and whine. Like guys ... come on. I'd also tell them what to do to get closer to that goal faster without pulling strings, but that meant they had to do extra work, lotta folks didn't want to do that either. Granted consumer support guy, probably has no tools / doesn't know the magic words / people and so on. Also probably afraid to tell you. Support personnel are most often "valued' for a short time but in reality are seen as a cost in most orgs and treated like garbage / scummy pawns. At one company I worked at the engineers would invite me over to their building when they had food catered. They knew we got jack squat (support almost never got food catered in), we had management who only knew how to prove their worth by penny pinching, and the engineers liked some of us / knew we saved them a lot of time. Side story: I don't know if Amazon ever had human support but right now I've got something that shipped 3+ months ago and it is "On the way but running late" ... for 3+ months. In the past Amazon would just give me a refund outright... Now Amazon just sends me between two different bots that can't help me at all... The seller has a bunch of posts and feedback all the same, people not getting the product. Amazon bot don't care tells me to talk to the other bot. My review (almost the same as the other reviews now warning people about not getting product) was rejected.
- cameldrv 3y ago
  On the Amazon thing, get the tracking number and track it with the carrier. I’ve found Amazon will say something has shipped when only the label has been created. You can see the truth if you track it through the actual carrier. There seem to be some sellers on Amazon that just don’t ship things until the customer complains.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". I've had reasonable luck, honestly. Certainly not the majority of the time, but often enough to have some hope. I've found that if I treat the support person decently -- as in, don't show my irritation and treat them as I'd prefer to be treated if I had their job -- and I demonstrate (not assert) that I've done my homework, know what I'm talking about, and am reasonable, I can get things escalated to someone who has the knowledge and power to address my concern. I've even been put directly in touch with devs this way on occasion. What I've learned is that most support people actually do want to get your issue resolved and don't want to spend all day with you. What you need to do is give them an acceptable (to their supervisors) reason to kick your issue to someone who can be more helpful. And don't be a dick. Nobody's going to go out of their way to help a dick.

MBCook 3y ago

Support can’t do anything, but they are often your only chance to get what you want: the message passed to someone who might be able to in the future. That’s what the rep said they would do here. And sadly that’s the most you can ask for.

jojobas 3y ago
Then you don't bother with the company and report it straight to the regulators. Losing that sweet CE sticker will make them move.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Not implementing USB-PD could cause that to be yanked in a product.l? Maybe these aren’t sold in Europe though.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    I think the issue is worse than not implementing USB-PD, it won't charge at all when plugged into a usb-c port, thus not complying with the usb-c spec while having a usb-c port. I'm no lawyer but the author says it's illegal in some jurisdictions. In your declaration of conformity you have to list which standards you conform to, and IEC 62680-1-3 would be one of them. I suppose if you found to be lying on your declaration there would be consequences.

mtlynch 3y ago

I've sometimes been able to escalate to the right people and effect change, even when I have to go through a seemingly uncaring customer support team. I was inspired by patio11's "Identity Theft, Credit Reports, and You."[0] It changed the way I raise disputes with companies as a consumer, and it's gotten me good results. The tl; dr is that large organizations have things they're afraid of, and they typically have processes in place to prevent them from happening. If you figure out what the company is afraid of, tie your grievance to that fear, and it will pressure the company to resolve your issue. With credit reporting agencies, they're afraid of regulatory incidents. If you give signals that you're gathering evidence for a complaint to regulators, they'll work hard to resolve your issue. Other companies are afraid of a complaint to a distributor or the potential for a lawsuit. They're usually afraid of something, and if you can figure out what it is, you can get the attention of people with the power to resolve the issue. [0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

jasonjayr 3y ago
So; in this specific case, if they have a USB-IF trademarked logo or icon on their device or packaging, then maybe the USB-IF could come along to put some pressure to get a better outcome? I've seen cheap devices with USB ports --- but no logo. Probably for this very reason.
- overnight5349 3y ago
  The USB logo is pretty well pointless. All you're paying for is a license for the logo. Despite USB-IF's efforts to associate that logo with "good" or "safe" or even "compliant" USB devices, I doubt that many consumers know or care. Part of the reason is that their licensing is pretty pricey unless you're already at the mass manufacturing stage. You have to pay an annual fee for the logo, an annual fee for the VID, and you have to pay to get your widget certified. All so you can use a logo that consumers don't know or care about. On the other hand, you can implement a USB device without paying a dime to USB-IF. It's super annoying without your own VID, but that's often not even necessary. So we get cheap Chinese devices with no certification because why would they even bother?

_yb2s 3y ago

Great comment… It makes me appreciate that last year I bought a part for my car that didn’t work great but was ok. They said exactly that- they would gear up to manufacture a better one and get back to me. About 8 months later I got two redesigned parts free in the mail and got to keep the initial one.

jasonjayr 3y ago
If this is True, then definitely name the company! This is excellent customer service!

mike_d 3y ago

> doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. A waste of time for both parties, because the author is wrong. As Wikipedia helpfully points out: "The designation C refers only to the connector's physical configuration or form factor and should not be confused with the connector's specific capabilities" From the write up it looks like he was able to get it working with the minimum 3A required by the cable spec. You don't actually have to support C-to-C cables if you choose to not to communicate with the e-marker.

ericswpark 3y ago
Hi, author here. The quote you mentioned from Wikipedia indeed says that devices don't have to implement all the capabilities of the connector. However, further down, it says the following: > USB-C devices may optionally provide or consume bus power currents of 1.5 A and 3.0 A (at 5 V) in addition to baseline bus power provision; power sources can either advertise increased USB current through the configuration channel, or they can implement the full USB Power Delivery specification using both BMC-coded configuration line and legacy BFSK-coded VBUS line. And further down: > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C As the device doesn't implement the full USB PD specs, it must advertise that it wants power through the CC (configuration channel) pins. This is part of the specifications and it must be properly implemented.
- mike_d 3y ago
  > > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. Yup. You are referring to the USB 2.0 spec there, not the USB-C spec. If you follow the citation it in turn seems to be citing (not explicitly) the USB-PD spec.
  - ericswpark 3y ago
    It's a remote that charges via the USB-C port. If it doesn't follow USB 2.0 spec, or the USB-PD spec, or any spec associated with the type-C port, how is it supposed to get power from the host device/charger?

duxup 3y ago

Worked in support for a long time. Very true. The real trick is trying to get the support guy to tell you what to do to get the right attention ... IF they know. I used to do that all the time when I did big time networking gear support. "I, the support guy, can't just send you a new router (price like $200k+), that's just the policy, I gotta do X, Y, Z. That will take a bit of time and here is how that works ____ . But if you can get _____ to tell me to do it, I'll do it." Now as a support guy you have to know the lay of the land before you deliver that line... but I was lucky enough to know and that org had good policies and so on. What is AMAZING is some customers didn't realize that I just gave them the route they needed to go to get exactly what they wanted and they'd complain and whine. Like guys ... come on. I'd also tell them what to do to get closer to that goal faster without pulling strings, but that meant they had to do extra work, lotta folks didn't want to do that either. Granted consumer support guy, probably has no tools / doesn't know the magic words / people and so on. Also probably afraid to tell you. Support personnel are most often "valued' for a short time but in reality are seen as a cost in most orgs and treated like garbage / scummy pawns. At one company I worked at the engineers would invite me over to their building when they had food catered. They knew we got jack squat (support almost never got food catered in), we had management who only knew how to prove their worth by penny pinching, and the engineers liked some of us / knew we saved them a lot of time. Side story: I don't know if Amazon ever had human support but right now I've got something that shipped 3+ months ago and it is "On the way but running late" ... for 3+ months. In the past Amazon would just give me a refund outright... Now Amazon just sends me between two different bots that can't help me at all... The seller has a bunch of posts and feedback all the same, people not getting the product. Amazon bot don't care tells me to talk to the other bot. My review (almost the same as the other reviews now warning people about not getting product) was rejected.

cameldrv 3y ago
On the Amazon thing, get the tracking number and track it with the carrier. I’ve found Amazon will say something has shipped when only the label has been created. You can see the truth if you track it through the actual carrier. There seem to be some sellers on Amazon that just don’t ship things until the customer complains.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". I've had reasonable luck, honestly. Certainly not the majority of the time, but often enough to have some hope. I've found that if I treat the support person decently -- as in, don't show my irritation and treat them as I'd prefer to be treated if I had their job -- and I demonstrate (not assert) that I've done my homework, know what I'm talking about, and am reasonable, I can get things escalated to someone who has the knowledge and power to address my concern. I've even been put directly in touch with devs this way on occasion. What I've learned is that most support people actually do want to get your issue resolved and don't want to spend all day with you. What you need to do is give them an acceptable (to their supervisors) reason to kick your issue to someone who can be more helpful. And don't be a dick. Nobody's going to go out of their way to help a dick.