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Community Note correcting Musk’s anti-vax tweet mysteriously disappears
- klyrs 3y agoCome, now. There's no mystery.
- two_handfuls 3y agoI’m surprised when I see people uncritically repeating the claim that Twitter now aims for “free speech.” It’s clear that was never true and always meant “Speech Elon wants to allow.”
- andersa 3y agoIt was always about the right wing kind of free speech - free to harass and insult people, freedom from consequences.
- nxx788 3y agoAnd freedom to "censor" speech they don't like.
- gadders 3y agoWhen did he do that?
- littlestymaar 3y agoLinks to Mastodon, ElonJet, the day he banned a dozen of journalists[1], etc. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/15/technology/twitter-suspends-journalist-accounts-elon-musk.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/15/technology/twitter-suspen...
- nxx788 3y agoThere are several instances of left wing folks being banned, he stated that "cis" will be disallowed on the platform, he's removed tweets at the behest of governments like the Saudis, and this post is literally about text disappearing, lol. It's not hard to find instances. Note, I think it's fine for companies to moderate speech on their platforms. No objections there. Just don't simultaneously claim you are some sort of free speech absolutist.
- slily 3y ago[flagged]
- pessimizer 3y ago> There are several instances of left wing folks being banned You understand that you were asked for one, right? This is not one, this is a vague claim being repeated. > he stated that "cis" will be disallowed on the platform No, he didn't. He said that "cis" being thrown as an insult to people who didn't wish to be called "cis" wouldn't automatically be discounted as harassment. Maybe I'm wrong about this - can you find a single person that was banned or censored by twitter for saying "cis?" > It's not hard to find instances. If it's too hard for you to do, why do you expect others to believe you when you say this?
- nxx788 3y ago[dead]
- fit2rule 3y ago[dead]
- mywittyname 3y agoDon't forget -- freedom from having to hear left-wing ideologies or about anything uncomfortable.
- ben_w 3y agoLeft or right, anarchic or authoritarian, theocratic (of any flavour) or atheist, populist or technocratic, radical or conservative, Apollonian or Dionysian. There's more ways to be outside the Overton window, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.
- willcipriano 3y agoSo reverse Reddit?
- pessimizer 3y agoOn what planet were liberal voices being censored in any way on twitter? Left-wingers were being banned because the liberals that filled their responses with invective, invitations for them to kill themselves, and appeals that they be arrested were mass reporting them.
- bko 3y agoRight because that's objectionable speech. You don't need to worry about non-objectionable speech because no one would care to censor it. I don't know what you mean by freedom on consequences. I guess a consequence of speech could be to get your account banned? If anything Twitter leaving up your objectionable content would result in more likely conferences of being fired or something.
- thelopa 3y agoAnd yet, Elon has decided that a term used in academic medical research for nearly a century, “cisgender”, is a slur and banned from the platform. Funny how he wants to protect objectionable speech that aligns with his political view while restricting “objectionable” speech that doesn’t.
- lathiat 3y agoFrom Wikipedia, while the concept has been discussed since at least 1914 the actual term cisgender has apparently only been used since 1994: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
- thelopa 3y agoCisgender is recent, but it’s also primarily used to serve as the counter to transgender. To understand “cisgender”, it’s useful to study the history of “transgender”. Transgender was introduced as a term because it encompassed a larger group of people and avoided the stigma surrounding “transsexual”. Transsexual has a history dating back about a hundred years. Since “trans-“ and “cis-“ are antonym prefixes, once you have transsexual, you have cissexual. For the purposes of Elon’s rule, it doesn’t matter whether it’s CISsexual or CISgender, he objects to “cis”.
- fenimi 3y agoOne reason why many people, particularly feminist women, find "cisgender" a disagreeable term is because it's a linguistic concession that makes it more difficult to argue for the rights of actual female women, as it implicitly redefines "woman" to include males and "man" to include females.
- rayiner 3y ago[flagged]
- tedunangst 3y agoAnd pics of his wiener!
- pessimizer 3y ago> It was always about the right wing kind of free speech It was always about the kind of speech that was being banned. Movement Democrats like to think of themselves as left-wing, so everything that opposes their party becomes right-wing, including people to the left of them. Movement Democrats weren't being banned for spreading misinformation, they were being encouraged. > free to harass and insult people, freedom from consequences. There were only consequences on one side with old twitter.
- archagon 3y agoOne side was far more unruly than the other. (And still is.)
- fit2rule 3y ago[dead]
- 13years 3y agoFree speech is the most fragile principle of liberty. It readily makes hypocrites out of most of its strongest defenders.
- AnthonyMouse 3y agoThis problem is not unique to free speech. Whoever is in power doesn't see why they should follow a principle their opponents violated when they were in power, except that then no one follows the principle and everyone is worse off for it. It's no different for privacy or due process or free association. This is why we try to put these things in constitutions for governments, and build decentralized systems with no bureaucratic chokepoints for communications networks.
- 13years 3y agoThat is true, but the principle of speech is violated by everyday individuals with no power who espouse such values. You could say it is simply a derivative of the mindset that nearly everyone holds "liberty for me, but not for thee". We just tend to ignore or think it is irrelevant when nobody holds power. Yes, Elon and X can never be taken seriously on free speech without a pivot towards decentralization. What is happening with X is precisely the opposite. The "everything" app only provides opportunity for more control which will result in less freedom inevitably.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago> That is true, but the principle of speech is violated by everyday individuals with no power who espouse such values. The same is true of anything else. People demand their privacy and then look through their partner's phone etc. > We just tend to ignore or think it is irrelevant when nobody holds power. "Nobody holds power over others" is an impossible perfection but getting closer to it is a primary goal of a good society. > Yes, Elon and X can never be taken seriously on free speech without a pivot towards decentralization. What is happening with X is precisely the opposite. The "everything" app only provides opportunity for more control which will result in less freedom inevitably. "Everything app" is some kind of marketing BS. Is the same app supposed to protect your anonymity and do your taxes? Hold your medical records and implement opaque buggy video game anti-cheat systems? That is either a farce or a dystopia. But in practice he probably just means they're going to add some Tesla integration or cryptocurrency thing to Twitter and then people can take it or leave it.
- gadders 3y ago[flagged]
- pavel_lishin 3y ago[citation needed]
- gadders 3y agoLol. Have you been in a news blackout for the last year? Denying it at this point is equivalent to being a flat earther or something. Read the Twitter Files from Tabibi, Weiss, Shellenberger etc. The evidence is all there.
- zzzeek 3y agodon't you mean the X Files? It certainly fits, a show all about fictionalized conspiracies
- gadders 3y agoSo all those twitter and government agencies that sent emails saying they were doing it were.. what? Cosplaying and writing fictional emails for LOLs?
- ryneandal 3y ago> To date, not a single document revealed has shown what people now falsely believe: that the US government and Twitter were working together to “censor” people based on their political viewpoints. Literally none of that has been shown at all. Instead, what’s been shown is that Twitter had a competent trust & safety team that debated tough questions around how to apply policies for users on their platform and did not seem at all politically motivated in their decisions. https://www.techdirt.com/2023/06/05/twitter-admits-in-court-filing-elon-musk-is-simply-wrong-about-government-interference-at-twitter/ https://www.techdirt.com/2023/06/05/twitter-admits-in-court-...
- goodbyesf 3y agoExperience has shown that people who scream 'free speech' just mean 'my free speech only'. Doesn't matter whether it's left or right, rich or poor, educated or uneducated, When the 'liberals' were trying to push their agenda, they screamed 'free speech'. Once they succeeded, they pushed censorship everywhere. Elon was screaming 'free speech' at twitter. Once he got control, did he allow free speech? Of course not. He just introduced his version of censorship. Hypocrisy is part of human nature.
- caesil 3y agoI'm surprised when I see a comment ascribing this to Elon deleting things upvoted higher than the comments that explain this is a normal part of how Community Notes work for so-so notes.
- nonfamous 3y agoI'm a member of Community Notes and while it's common for an unpublished note to be downranked by members, I have never before seen an example of a published note (visible to all Twitter/X users) later be withdrawn from visibility. In fact, I don't think there's even a process for Community Notes members to make that happen.
- caesil 3y agoI'm also a member of Community Notes and I've seen it several times, as well as explanations from Twitter staff that this is how it works (this was pre-Elon).
- Ajedi32 3y agoIs there any actual evidence of foul play here? Could just be the note got enough bad ratings to stop being featured. Not that removing it would be entirely out of character for him, but Musk has gotten community notes applied to his Tweets before and always maintained that that was allowed and a good thing.
- TylerE 3y agoMusk always maintains something until he steps on his ego. Remember when twitter was supposed to be a "free speech" platform? Musk has lost all benefit of the doubt, and then some.
- Ajedi32 3y agoOkay, but this is still an implied accusation with zero evidence. Surely losing the "benefit of the doubt" doesn't mean you can just make up any story you want about someone and use that to demonize them until there's definitive proof your accusation is wrong?
- senel 3y agoLife is not just this or that. Life is also highly likely this or likely that. When you have a track record and make a lot of people have this image about you, many people will operate on highly likely’s or likely’s about you. Musk is no exception.
- synecdoche 3y agoAnd who is the arbiter of what’s highly likely? You? I? Jumping to conclusions without evidence is lynch mentality. But maybe people are ok with that.
- slily 3y ago> But maybe people are ok with that. Definitely true for many. Elon Musk is enemy number one since he disrupted social media. It is getting to the point that I have coworkers posting snide off-topic comments on internal chat throughout the day whenever he does something. All of his achievements are ascribed to luck, and every Twitter change is bad and attributed to his personal meddling. It's not entirely unwarranted considering there is some precedent, but the public hysteria is disproportionate for sure.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- tomp 3y agoInteresting. Funny how wrong the Community Note was. Obviously vaccine × virus aren't an xor. Many people have already had the virus by the time they were forced to take the vaccine. For those people the myocarditis risk was a strict net negative.
- legulere 3y agoWho was forced to get vaccinated in which country?
- pcdoodle 3y agoPeople who wanted to keep their job, friends and family. It's disgusting.
- gadders 3y agoOr people who wanted to travel.
- pavel_lishin 3y agoBy that metric, most of the people I know are being forced to wipe their asses and wash their hands as well. Where will the tyranny stop!?
- zzzeek 3y agoI'm forced to wear pants in public at all times. If I showed up to Thanksgiving with no pants, they'd ask me to leave and id never get invited again. Tyranny ! Everyone should be free to endanger everyone around them with a deadly crippling virus at all times.
- gadders 3y agoThe vaccine didn't stop transmission though so being vaccinated made no difference as to whether you were "endangering people" (you weren't, mostly) with a "deadly" (not unless morbidly obese or with other serious health issues) "crippling" (still unconfirmed) virus.
- mkl95 3y agoIt has felt pretty odd to see Twitter evolve from the lightweight microblogging site it once was, to a political free-for-all, and then to some kind of Truth Social spinoff for geeks.
- hombre_fatal 3y agoCommunity notes regularly disappear. It mainly comes down to the bent of a person's followers since they will simply downrank a community note. I frequently see someone screencapping someone's tweet + the community note to go "haha pwned" but then I visit the tweet and the note is long gone. Also, a lot of notes are low quality and seemingly upvoted just because they counter the tweet at all.
- VancouverMan 3y agoThe concept of a "community note" never made sense to me. The "community" itself isn't really one entity with a coherent position on any particular matter. The "community" is just a byproduct of people coming together to engage in discussion. If somebody wanted to try to refute what somebody else claimed, it should have been done at an individual level, through the existing discussion mechanisms (a reply, or a new tweet, or an off-Twitter article/video, and so on).
- hombre_fatal 3y agoI appreciate the idea of community notes. The problem is how widely a shit-tier or dangerous or bullshit tweet can spread, yet few people are going to click into it to read the replies, and there's no guarantee that a tweet that goes "Um, this is BS and here's why: <link>" is going to appear at the top. There's probably a better implementation of community notes. Like perhaps a way to vote existing replies or quote replies into community-note-status which you might agree with. But the value is showing a countervailing message inline with the original tweet since that's all people are going to read.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago> Like perhaps a way to vote existing replies or quote replies into community-note-status which you might agree with. If only social media sites had some kind of voting or points system that contributes to visibility? The basic problem here is that high quality moderation is extremely expensive but low quality moderation outrages its victims and is susceptible to manipulation by partisans and SEO scum. As far as I can tell the best solution is to make filtering modular so that it's independent of the hosting site. Then the site doesn't get dumped on for screwing it up and if you don't like some particular solution you personally can switch to another one without losing the network effect, or try your hand at doing it yourself to see how much fun it can be. But controlling the filter through which everybody sees everything is valuable and it's hard to get anyone in a position of power to give that up.
- myhorsehasworms 3y agoTo be fair, that twitter context post is almost entirely useless. Comparing the risk of myocarditis from vaccines to the risk of myocarditis from actually getting covid is not a helpful comparison. Generally speaking, everyone is going to get covid whether you are vaxxed or unvaxxed. So the question is whether adding vaccines into the mix REDUCES the overall myocarditis risk or increases it. In other words (Covid infection myocarditis risk + vaccine myocarditis risk) VS (covid infection myocarditis risk) From https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... "But the risk of myocarditis associated with the vaccine was lower than the risk associated with COVID-19 infection before or after vaccination – with one exception. Men under 40 who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a higher risk of myocarditis following vaccination. The Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines are available in the U.S." Unless I am horribly misreading this, it seems that (Covid infection + non-moderna vaccine), has a lower risk of myocarditis than (covid infection + no vaccine) EXCEPT in men under 40 receiving moderna. In that case, (covid infection + moderna), has a HIGHER risk than (covid infection + no vaccine) Can anyone correct me if I am reading this wrong?
- dhimes 3y agoI disagree that the context post is almost useless. I bet there were a lot of people reading that who didn't know that myocarditis is a possible side-effect of Covid itself without the community pointing it out to them right there.
- ramraj07 3y agoMany if not most studies don’t clearly demarcate pre-omicron covid vs omicron. I’d love to know what the science is on myocarditis risk from just omicron is.
- peter422 3y agoThere have been numerous studies showing that omicron severity is very likely equivalent to prior strains. The decrease in serious illness is due to prior immunity and vaccination. Though it’s obviously a hard thing to prove either way. But certainly I do not think it should be assumed that omicron is inherently more mild.
- dbsights 3y agoMaybe there is no conspiracy and the note is just wrong. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2791253 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
- Thoeu388 3y ago[flagged]
- forgingahead 3y agoWhat is anti-vax about it?
- mpweiher 3y agoHuh? What is "anti-vaxx" about that tweet? It is absolutely mundane and trivially true. And just for reference: I myself am triple vaccinated (waited a bit too long for my 4th booster and then got it, damn), and a total vaccine enthusiast. As in the vaccines are amazing, both in general and in particularly the COVID vaccines. For further reference, last I checked the German health authorities still only recommend COVID vaccination for children with pre-existing conditions, pretty much due to the risk/reward tradeoff. (I personally would be more in favour than they). And the community note didn't really make sense, as what he said was not about relative frequencies, but about the question of whether myocarditis is a common side effect or not...and even on that he didn't give an opinion.
- pessimizer 3y agoExactly what was that note supposed to be correcting? Humor me. Musk made a very short statement with a single factual claim: "Myocarditis is a known side-effect [of a vaccine.]" The community note correcting it says that Covid causes more myocarditis than that covid vaccine. How is that a correction? It's a snarky verification.
- fwjlwo 3y agoThank you for explaining that this "community notes" system is broken and only serves to harrass people. Now that your idol is the target you came to realize that.