7 ms·

Seattle in Progress

60 points by rendang 3y ago

TulliusCicero 3y ago
Something to keep in mind here: the slower the permitting and building process, the longer a point will remain on the map, which means more points total at any given time. This means that the process being slower will make it look like there's actually more change, when in reality a process being slower will usually lead to less change (since slower processes mean more money and hassle). To use an extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point, imagine if permitting and building only took a day each: the map here would be nearly empty.
- buildbot 3y ago
  I think this map is not that up to date? Checking on some points I walk by a lot, there are several projects from as far back as 2013 that I know are done. Maybe I am missing something.
  - noahtallen 3y ago
    I think it's up-to-date in terms of new projects that get added, but there are definitely some completed ones whose status isn't updated. (But also some recently completed projects are removed, so I'm not sure why it's inconsistent. Potentially an issue with the data source?)
  - jedberg 3y ago
    It says completed projects only stay on the map for one year.
    - cowsandmilk 3y ago
      They can claim that, but they have Google’s Fairview office on there and it opened in 2019 or 2020.
      - Tempest1981 3y ago
        Could it be that it hasn't yet passed final inspection? (Or did in 2022)
        7e 3y ago
        Maybe there is retail churn.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    A lot of projects on that map have been completed for a few years now, at least in Ballard where I live. It is also missing projects that I see in progress on my morning walks.
- taeric 3y ago
  Maybe? Could also be that latency is visible in the map without major impact on throughput. That is, you have to argue to unrealistic extremes of building taking a day to get the imagination for an empty map. Latency is a fact of all delivery. How much is the question. Combined with realistic build times, it may be this is the optimal map? Realistically, extra latency will have some advantages in many cases.
- dymk 3y ago
  You can filter by "Approved", so you're not seeing in-progress applications
  - bluGill 3y ago
    In-progress applications is the most important thing to monitor. While some applications will need to take time, most should be fast. That is the review should be a clerk checking that it is allowed by current code (takes only a few minutes) and approving. There will always be a few requests to change the zone or a special variance to the code, but even then many at one time suggests you have a problem of it being too hard to build. The purpose of a city is to collect a lot of human activities in a relatively small space. Most of those occure indoors so if people can't build what they want/need your city is failing.
zonkerdonker 3y ago
Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Now I can easily snoop and find out which neighbors actually applied for permits for their DADUs ha
supernova87a 3y ago
Here is a separate argument I wish to pick with city governments + planners, especially if you are claiming to be liberal, pro-living-wage, etc. all these kinds of things (and by no means is this a new criticism, I acknowledge) More than just the slowness of development or lack of housing that results -- the amount of red tape, approvals, and permits (for honestly ridiculous aspects of aesthetic considerations) that a city imposes, the more it discriminates against middle income / low income people. What you find in our most liberal cities is that the more that entrenched old populations who got there first want to keep the city to be a certain character by making the permitting process difficult, the more it is that only rich people can afford to get through those processes. Have you ever noticed that fancy new condos or rich people's houses are able to be built, while the average homeowner throws up his/her hands at the amount of permits and hearing necessary to get a simple remodeling done? It's really discrimination against anyone but the rich, who have the money to hire people who can navigate this system that's been created. I once randomly sat in a building permit hearing where the committee members seemed to out of obligation, require certain changes to any application that came along just to seem to be doing their jobs. The color of a door, the location of a chimney. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe the city has good intentions, but like so many things left on unintended autopilot, it has become a conservative force. The family of 4 who could either get much more out of their house in living space, upgrade their life, or at least sell it for more, are forced to give up those plans when confronted with the ridiculous permitting/approvals process. So you end up with cities where only the rich can afford to apply for a permit and succeed at it. We would do well to confront what we've incentivized, and whether they're living up to our claimed values.
- CPLX 3y ago
  An interesting revelation I had was realizing that culturally speaking all Boomers were conservative, they just picked different things to be conservative about. Maybe that’s just an attribute of old people maybe not, I haven’t seen enough generations up close to have an opinion yet. We’ll see how my generation (Gen X) does I guess.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
noahtallen 3y ago
Another fun Seattle site is the permit record search: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ If you put in an address for many newer projects (say 1200 Stewart St), and then sort by document size largest to smallest, the largest documents will include blueprints. (Example: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=7613996 https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=7613996)
- kridsdale3 3y ago
  That is really awesome. I've been watching this building be assembled every time I drive by, but now I will appreciate it so much more. I didn't know about the great pool(s!) on the roof. It's fun to open in Preview.app (not Chrome!) and page through the myriad floors of 2bd layouts which are all the same but see the curvy exterior form morph organically as you ascend.
haberman 3y ago
Wow, from this I learned that a property directly adjacent to mine recently obtained permits to build a DADU. I almost considered doing a trial of their subscription to get more details, but at $89/month it's way beyond what I'd be willing to pay for this.
- davis 3y ago
  As another commenter said, go here, input the address and you can probably find all the same details: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/
dchuk 3y ago
I was in Seattle this weekend (not for Taylor swift), and it felt like every single street had been torn up for redoing pipes or whatever. All of us were just baffled at the sheer volume of simultaneous projects going on.
- Schiendelman 3y ago
  By "every single street" you must mean in the center of town? Most of the city doesn't have anything going on.
- carabiner 3y ago
  That's a shame. You missed an awesome show.
- noahtallen 3y ago
  Two of the core tourist streets (Pike/Pine) are getting redone to be more pedestrian friendly: https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/pike-pine-renaissance https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/pike-pine-...
alvincodes 3y ago
CBC did a similar thing showing how old Montreal's buildings are: https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/montreal-375-buildings/ https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/montreal-375-buildings...
AlbertCory 3y ago
I actually wrote the feature that they (probably) used to create this map! You can start with a CSV with either lat-long pairs, or street addresses, and load it in. The hard part of the UX is giving error feedback. This is some test data I would have loved to have. I had several files of bike accidents.
RagnarD 3y ago
Quite a bit will be changed the day after this happens. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big...
moneywoes 3y ago
Is this built on top of google maps? Isn’t that cost prohibitive, curious if there’s another alternative, open street maps perhaps.
wonderwonder 3y ago
I have no insight into Seattle. This is a genuine honest question. Why is Seattle growing? The news appears to illustrate it as a drug infested homeless encampment. The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone and the related killings did not help that narrative. So honest question, what's really going on there?
- jshmrsn 3y ago
  Amazon is based in Seattle, Microsoft is based nearby. Google, Apple, Facebook, etc. all setup offices there as a result. There’s a concentration of wealth, talent, and offspring startups.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Thank you for an unemotional, factual response, much appreciated.
- coding123 3y ago
  That is exactly what I saw when I drove through.
- seattleman 3y ago
  It's a beautiful city with a temperate climate, nearby mountains and ocean, thriving arts and music scenes, good schools, sports, unique and walkable neighborhoods, and a bunch of other things that people look for when they decide where they want to put down roots. Yes, there is a drug problem, and parts of the city are quite bad, but if you walked around Capitol Hill today you'd probably enjoy yourself and feel quite safe!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- panarky 3y ago
  When you find that your news sources don't match what's actually happening in the real world, it's time to check on the agenda of those news sources. It's also a good idea to look at macro trends and not get distracted by anecdotes with high emotional or political payloads. My experience: A desirable place to live. Mild climate, beautiful scenery, a wide variety of cultural and recreational activities, top-ranked universities. A growing job market. The job market in Seattle is growing rapidly, with a number of new businesses and industries opening up in the area. This has created a lot of new job opportunities, which has attracted people from all over the country and the world. A strong transportation system. Seattle has a well-developed transportation system, which makes it easy for people to get around the city without a car. The city has a light rail system, a bus system, and an extensive network of bike paths and trails. A vibrant arts and culture scene. Seattle has a vibrant arts and culture scene, with a number of museums, theaters, and concert halls. The city also hosts a number of festivals and events throughout the year. Seattle culture is welcoming and accepting, attracting people from all over the world. This diversity creates a rich cultural tapestry that can be found in the city's restaurants, shops, and neighborhoods.
mlandauer 3y ago
For a similar project in Australia (that covers most of Australia) see https://www.planningalerts.org.au/ https://www.planningalerts.org.au/
sigden 3y ago
The city of Seattle has their own version of this data that doesn't charge you to to see additional project details, contact information, permit schedules and more: https://web8.seattle.gov/sdci/shapingseattle/buildings https://web8.seattle.gov/sdci/shapingseattle/buildings

60 points by rendang 3y ago

Something to keep in mind here: the slower the permitting and building process, the longer a point will remain on the map, which means more points total at any given time. This means that the process being slower will make it look like there's actually more change, when in reality a process being slower will usually lead to less change (since slower processes mean more money and hassle). To use an extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point, imagine if permitting and building only took a day each: the map here would be nearly empty.

buildbot 3y ago
I think this map is not that up to date? Checking on some points I walk by a lot, there are several projects from as far back as 2013 that I know are done. Maybe I am missing something.
- noahtallen 3y ago
  I think it's up-to-date in terms of new projects that get added, but there are definitely some completed ones whose status isn't updated. (But also some recently completed projects are removed, so I'm not sure why it's inconsistent. Potentially an issue with the data source?)
- jedberg 3y ago
  It says completed projects only stay on the map for one year.
  - cowsandmilk 3y ago
    They can claim that, but they have Google’s Fairview office on there and it opened in 2019 or 2020.
    - Tempest1981 3y ago
      Could it be that it hasn't yet passed final inspection? (Or did in 2022)
      - 7e 3y ago
        Maybe there is retail churn.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  A lot of projects on that map have been completed for a few years now, at least in Ballard where I live. It is also missing projects that I see in progress on my morning walks.
taeric 3y ago
Maybe? Could also be that latency is visible in the map without major impact on throughput. That is, you have to argue to unrealistic extremes of building taking a day to get the imagination for an empty map. Latency is a fact of all delivery. How much is the question. Combined with realistic build times, it may be this is the optimal map? Realistically, extra latency will have some advantages in many cases.
dymk 3y ago
You can filter by "Approved", so you're not seeing in-progress applications
- bluGill 3y ago
  In-progress applications is the most important thing to monitor. While some applications will need to take time, most should be fast. That is the review should be a clerk checking that it is allowed by current code (takes only a few minutes) and approving. There will always be a few requests to change the zone or a special variance to the code, but even then many at one time suggests you have a problem of it being too hard to build. The purpose of a city is to collect a lot of human activities in a relatively small space. Most of those occure indoors so if people can't build what they want/need your city is failing.

zonkerdonker 3y ago

Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Now I can easily snoop and find out which neighbors actually applied for permits for their DADUs ha

supernova87a 3y ago

Here is a separate argument I wish to pick with city governments + planners, especially if you are claiming to be liberal, pro-living-wage, etc. all these kinds of things (and by no means is this a new criticism, I acknowledge) More than just the slowness of development or lack of housing that results -- the amount of red tape, approvals, and permits (for honestly ridiculous aspects of aesthetic considerations) that a city imposes, the more it discriminates against middle income / low income people. What you find in our most liberal cities is that the more that entrenched old populations who got there first want to keep the city to be a certain character by making the permitting process difficult, the more it is that only rich people can afford to get through those processes. Have you ever noticed that fancy new condos or rich people's houses are able to be built, while the average homeowner throws up his/her hands at the amount of permits and hearing necessary to get a simple remodeling done? It's really discrimination against anyone but the rich, who have the money to hire people who can navigate this system that's been created. I once randomly sat in a building permit hearing where the committee members seemed to out of obligation, require certain changes to any application that came along just to seem to be doing their jobs. The color of a door, the location of a chimney. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe the city has good intentions, but like so many things left on unintended autopilot, it has become a conservative force. The family of 4 who could either get much more out of their house in living space, upgrade their life, or at least sell it for more, are forced to give up those plans when confronted with the ridiculous permitting/approvals process. So you end up with cities where only the rich can afford to apply for a permit and succeed at it. We would do well to confront what we've incentivized, and whether they're living up to our claimed values.

CPLX 3y ago
An interesting revelation I had was realizing that culturally speaking all Boomers were conservative, they just picked different things to be conservative about. Maybe that’s just an attribute of old people maybe not, I haven’t seen enough generations up close to have an opinion yet. We’ll see how my generation (Gen X) does I guess.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago

noahtallen 3y ago

Another fun Seattle site is the permit record search: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ If you put in an address for many newer projects (say 1200 Stewart St), and then sort by document size largest to smallest, the largest documents will include blueprints. (Example: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=7613996 https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=7613996)

kridsdale3 3y ago
That is really awesome. I've been watching this building be assembled every time I drive by, but now I will appreciate it so much more. I didn't know about the great pool(s!) on the roof. It's fun to open in Preview.app (not Chrome!) and page through the myriad floors of 2bd layouts which are all the same but see the curvy exterior form morph organically as you ascend.

haberman 3y ago

Wow, from this I learned that a property directly adjacent to mine recently obtained permits to build a DADU. I almost considered doing a trial of their subscription to get more details, but at $89/month it's way beyond what I'd be willing to pay for this.

davis 3y ago
As another commenter said, go here, input the address and you can probably find all the same details: https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/ https://web.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/

dchuk 3y ago

I was in Seattle this weekend (not for Taylor swift), and it felt like every single street had been torn up for redoing pipes or whatever. All of us were just baffled at the sheer volume of simultaneous projects going on.

Schiendelman 3y ago
By "every single street" you must mean in the center of town? Most of the city doesn't have anything going on.
carabiner 3y ago
That's a shame. You missed an awesome show.
noahtallen 3y ago
Two of the core tourist streets (Pike/Pine) are getting redone to be more pedestrian friendly: https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/pike-pine-renaissance https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/pike-pine-...

alvincodes 3y ago

CBC did a similar thing showing how old Montreal's buildings are: https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/montreal-375-buildings/ https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/montreal-375-buildings...

AlbertCory 3y ago

I actually wrote the feature that they (probably) used to create this map! You can start with a CSV with either lat-long pairs, or street addresses, and load it in. The hard part of the UX is giving error feedback. This is some test data I would have loved to have. I had several files of bike accidents.

RagnarD 3y ago

Quite a bit will be changed the day after this happens. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big...

moneywoes 3y ago

Is this built on top of google maps? Isn’t that cost prohibitive, curious if there’s another alternative, open street maps perhaps.

wonderwonder 3y ago

I have no insight into Seattle. This is a genuine honest question. Why is Seattle growing? The news appears to illustrate it as a drug infested homeless encampment. The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone and the related killings did not help that narrative. So honest question, what's really going on there?

jshmrsn 3y ago
Amazon is based in Seattle, Microsoft is based nearby. Google, Apple, Facebook, etc. all setup offices there as a result. There’s a concentration of wealth, talent, and offspring startups.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  Thank you for an unemotional, factual response, much appreciated.
coding123 3y ago
That is exactly what I saw when I drove through.
seattleman 3y ago
It's a beautiful city with a temperate climate, nearby mountains and ocean, thriving arts and music scenes, good schools, sports, unique and walkable neighborhoods, and a bunch of other things that people look for when they decide where they want to put down roots. Yes, there is a drug problem, and parts of the city are quite bad, but if you walked around Capitol Hill today you'd probably enjoy yourself and feel quite safe!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
panarky 3y ago
When you find that your news sources don't match what's actually happening in the real world, it's time to check on the agenda of those news sources. It's also a good idea to look at macro trends and not get distracted by anecdotes with high emotional or political payloads. My experience: A desirable place to live. Mild climate, beautiful scenery, a wide variety of cultural and recreational activities, top-ranked universities. A growing job market. The job market in Seattle is growing rapidly, with a number of new businesses and industries opening up in the area. This has created a lot of new job opportunities, which has attracted people from all over the country and the world. A strong transportation system. Seattle has a well-developed transportation system, which makes it easy for people to get around the city without a car. The city has a light rail system, a bus system, and an extensive network of bike paths and trails. A vibrant arts and culture scene. Seattle has a vibrant arts and culture scene, with a number of museums, theaters, and concert halls. The city also hosts a number of festivals and events throughout the year. Seattle culture is welcoming and accepting, attracting people from all over the world. This diversity creates a rich cultural tapestry that can be found in the city's restaurants, shops, and neighborhoods.

mlandauer 3y ago

For a similar project in Australia (that covers most of Australia) see https://www.planningalerts.org.au/ https://www.planningalerts.org.au/

sigden 3y ago

The city of Seattle has their own version of this data that doesn't charge you to to see additional project details, contact information, permit schedules and more: https://web8.seattle.gov/sdci/shapingseattle/buildings https://web8.seattle.gov/sdci/shapingseattle/buildings