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“We’ve Changed the Game”: Teamsters Win Historic UPS Contract
- mydriasis 3y agoThis is awesome news and a great addition to the trend of power coming back to the workers that I feel like I'm noticing lately. Super exciting: if you're a laborer, you should feel inspired by this. Collective bargaining is a seriously powerful tool.
- ryandrake 3y agoExcellent news indeed. Looking at the list of bullet points in the article, I challenge anyone to say, with a straight face, that each individual UPS worker negotiating on his/her own would have been able to achieve even half of them, let alone all of them. Well done. Hopefully you are right about a trend.
- jancsika 3y agoHm, I can almost see the standard HN response here. I'm thinking specifically of the non-programming posts of a regular HN'er programmer[1]. Something like: Unions work on their own behalf and distort the market. Both in terms of the needs of individual workers and the efficiency of the company to deliver products/services. This negatively affects the company, and if the trend spreads ends up making the entire U.S. economy less competitive. I would then follow you down a rabbit hole where I post 2-3 sentence glib retorts. Digression: I could have done a lot better in the days before they locked down the vast majority of ChatGPT's capabilities. I know because I got it to impersonate both Dang and myself, at which it excelled; it also did a very good job of explaining style of any given user's writing here on HN. 1: Fun 2nd digression: the account I'm satirizing originally used a throwaway account for all of the zealous free-market flame posts. Dang ended up called out the pattern, asking the user to "stop using this account" to start low-effort flame wars. Rather than stop, the user instead opted to do their overzealous free-market trolling from their normal account. Problem solved, apparently! :)
- vGPU 3y agoCounter-point to the “standard response”: this would be a non issue if we had protective tariffs like just about every other first, second, and third world country instead of outsourcing everything. This is yet another issue caused by the Boomer’s “have my cake and eat it too” mindset.
- atleastoptimal 3y agoWhenever I think of the Teamsters I think of Scorsese gangster movies which are basically just the Teamsters cinematic universe.
- renewiltord 3y agoHaha, well warranted, I think. Sean O'Brien succeeded James Hoffa - son of the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. So the mob connections are not too far away there.
- _jal 3y agoWhen you think of CEOs, do you think of Les Grossman?
- metadat 3y agohttps://www.dexerto.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=3840,quality=75,format=auto/https://editors.dexerto.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/09/Tom-Cruise-Les-Grossman-Tropic-Thunder.jpg https://www.dexerto.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=3840,quality=75,...
- boppo1 3y agoPlease expand on why you think the teamsters are essentially irish and italian mafia.
- renewiltord 3y agoTony Pro was national vice president of the Teamsters while caporegime in the Genovese family. And there was Jimmy Hoffa, of course. They were quite heavily involved in organized crime at the time, with their top leaders being literally in the Mafia. They frequently show up in films covering the time. So it doesn't seem outlandish. Hoffa is the one that built it into a powerhouse. It's unsurprising that he remains the known face of the union. A Hoffa ran it for a third of its entire age.
- abfan1127 3y agoIs there any other independent analysis of this agreement? It all sounds good, but its also the teamster website. when is UPS's next earnings call?
- delecti 3y agoAugust 8th seems to be the next Earnings Call. https://investors.ups.com/news-events/ir-calendar https://investors.ups.com/news-events/ir-calendar
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoThis looks like a fair deal. $2.75/hour immediate bump and +$7.50/hour over the next five years; $21/hour floor for part-time workers; eliminating 22.4s, which Bloomberg describes as "a class of drivers who earned less" [1]; air conditioning in new vehicles; MLK Day as a paid holiday; and the "creation of 7,500 new full-time Teamster jobs at UPS and the fulfillment of 22,500 open positions." Well done to both sides for getting in a room and cutting a deal. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-25/ups-teamsters-reach-tentative-labor-deal-avoiding-strike?srnd=premium https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-25/ups-teams...
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- m463 3y agoAs long as amazon drivers get the same sort of benefits. I wonder if this will just make amazon's transition from ups -> amazon vehicles faster? or are amazon workers already paid well? EDIT: to clarify: sorry, I thought several steps ahead without connecting the dots. I think this is a good deal. I like UPS too. But I worry that UPS makes an enormous amount of its revenue from amazon, and it will make UPS more expensive. An analogy might be us manufacturing jobs treating their employees right while china is cheaper without worrying about employees. And then all the jobs migrate to china. The answer would be - china treats employees right.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> As long as amazon drivers get the same sort of benefits How does the fairness of this deal depend on negotiations between Amazon and its drivers?
- cjbgkagh 3y agoI think it is reference to the durability of the deal
- jrockway 3y ago
- johnohara 3y ago> "The creation of 7,500 new full-time Teamster jobs at UPS and the fulfillment of 22,500 open positions, establishing more opportunities through the life of the agreement for part-timers to transition to full-time work." "How ya' doin'? This is my brother Jimmie, my cousin Jimmie, and his son Jimmie. Nice place ya got here. Mind if we take a look around?"
- darth_avocado 3y agoThis is great news for workers in America in general. I know HN doesn’t like unions, but this shows that unions do work when they are motivated in working for the people they represent. More than Sean O’Brien, this victory was made possible by TDU’s rank and file members not giving in when UPS tried to shortchange them.
- learplant 3y agoTaking your word for it regarding HN not liking unions. Why is that if you know? What's the alternative for a UPS worker to get fair pay and fair working conditions?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Taking your word for it regarding HN not liking unions Don't. HN is far from a monolith on this issue. To the degree I've seen even a semblance of consensus, it's in animosity towards public-sector unions and gentle support for blue-collar private-sector unions. Where it turns to total anarchy is when we debate unionizing tech workers. (They tend to be fun reads.)
- lotsofpulp 3y agoEven amongst public sector, cop/firefighter/judge/politician unions are a different animal than the other government worker unions.
- Xeoncross 3y ago> turns to total anarchy is when we debate unionizing tech workers haha, true. Lots of straw men creep into that discussion. > I can't live off $500,000/yr, what if I get laid off? We need to unionize to protect our jobs and make sure our salary keeps up with inflation! Just wait until we talk about VP's unionizing.
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- silisili 3y agoThis is really awesome, one of the few jobs that now seem to be keeping up with inflation. 20 years ago I remember they paid everyone $8.50 an hour starting out, but had awesome perks like free college and housing assistance. Slowly they of course eroded the perks away, so the least they could do is pay more. Kudos Teamsters.
- throw9away6 3y agoHow much less spending power do employees have now as compared to 2020? That’s the real question… If it’s less than a 30% adjustment they will just come out less behind.
- the_only_law 3y agoI was talking to someone who’s partner works at UPS doing IT stuff. Apparently their contingency plan was to force people like him to additionally work the striking roles for no additional pay under the threat of firing.
- sidewndr46 3y agoThis is how Caterpillar handled the assembly line employees strike. My understanding is they never really rehired union labor.
- vGPU 3y agoMore than half of Cat’s labor is outsourced outside of the US, and they just got caught using slave labor in china not long ago. If we kept manufacturing inside of the US, they wouldn’t be able to abuse their workforce like that.
- runako 3y agoI interned at AT&T a while back. At the time, they required all "management" employees to prepare for their alternative roles in case CWA called a strike. The IT group I was in had people training to do field installs and maintenance as I recall. Interns in the group were considered "management" employees. Weird times.
- ImaCake 3y agoIf that’s true then UPS management is not very smart. Thanks to changing demographics there is now a permanent worker shortage which has allowed these strikes to succeed. You can’t threaten to fire people when they know they can get hired by the next company. The workers will just call your bluff.
- Mountain_Skies 3y agoI worked with UPS's top management in an outside consulting role unrelated to labor issues around the time of their first contract negotiations after the strike of the 90s. Avoiding another strike was their number one priority even if they had to put out a strong public face of something different. Workers have fared well each time the contract has come up and I believe the 90s strike had far more impact on the company's management culture than most, even the union, realizes. The folks I worked with seemed to believe another strike would be perhaps not fatal but damaging enough to put the company on a path towards death. It was to be avoided at all costs.
- lockhouse 3y agoGreat news for the Teamsters, but how much more inflation is this likely to cause? UPS has to pay for all of this somehow, which means we have to pay for it.
- CPLX 3y agoYou sure it’s going to be us instead of shaving half a percent of the Bezos budget for rocketry or something?
- lockhouse 3y ago99% sure it’s going to be us. The elites don’t usually do pay cuts.
- CPLX 3y agoSo free market forces only work in the market for CEOs and top executives? Here’s a dilemma for you - if they can raise prices for us without any consequence why haven’t they done it alredy?
- nyargh 3y agoDo you not buy your own groceries? They (retailers) clearly already have and had done so well before inflation began to bite suppliers.
- CPLX 3y agoBut why do free market forces and concerns about pricing only apply when labor wants higher wages? Do you register the same concerns about all of us being forced to pay higher prices when companies do stock buybacks?
- lockhouse 3y agoThe unfortunate reality is that in recent years wage increases result in higher prices, less hours for hourly employees, and fewer employees working. Walk in to a McDonald’s now that they’re paying over $15 an hour. There are half the employees in the restaurant than there used to be. They got replaced with touchscreen kiosks. Walmart, same thing, 2 lanes open and the rest is self checkout. Just pay people more isn’t the whole answer.
- artsytrashcan 3y agoThis is spin on a bad agreement. I hope the workers reject it and push for more.
- dymk 3y agoWhat do you think would be achievable that they haven't negotiated for already?
- einpoklum 3y agoProbably everything... Remember that you're getting the press releases from the union leadership which needs to justify calling off the strike, plus the pro-corporate news media.
- dymk 3y agoWhy would they call off the strike unless they thought they were getting a good deal?
- einpoklum 3y agoThe reason to call of a strike is actually to be able to pass a _bad_ deal. You see, the workers are not very likely to accept a bad deal if they've just come out on strike - even if their leadership has made excessive concessions in the negotiations and is putting it up to a vote. If, however, the leadership has "taken the wind out of the sails" of the struggle, the demobilized workers have the gotten the message that their struggle is over and there's nothing to be done, and are much more likely to accept it. This is usually accompanied by union leadership publishing glowing descriptions of all of the wonderful gains, usually in vague and confusing terms; never listing the set of original goals; and not mentioning what concessions were made. An uncorrupted union would never calls off a strike because of an employer proposition: If the proposition/proposed contract is offered enough time before the strike was decided, then it is brought up for discussion - with the negotiations team presenting both the benefits and the detriments: What they got and what they conceded; and the result of the discussion decides the fate of the planned strike. But when an offer is made just before a strike, naturally - the strike proceeds, and the offer is discussed in parallel with the strike. If the offer is accepted, the strike ends up being a short one; and if it is rejected - the struggle continues with the "wind in their sails".
- SaintSeiya84 3y agoThat's why Unions work, and so many lobbyists has ingrained in the US society that they are bad. Take that.
- the_optimist 3y agoWell, we do have teachers’ unions, police, firefighter unions, steelworker unions (not so much anymore, failed to adapt and killed the industry). Who’s taking what?
- drannex 3y agoCongrats! Unions work, unionize!
- Ericson2314 3y agoFull employment works people. Go read https://www.employamerica.org/ https://www.employamerica.org/ for some excellent analysis of the macroeconomics. And let's be clear, this is good for tech. Tight labor markets -> automation is actually needed. All the "above the API" / "below the API" scaremongering from the 2010s we should not see as the inevitable nature of things, but rather as a direct consequence from shitty economic policies during the Obama years.
- moneywoes 3y agoI don’t follow, how does this decision affect tech
- satvikpendem 3y agoLabor solidarity means that companies will look to automate more, thereby accelerating technological progress. This argument is known as (particularly, automation based) accelerationism.
- Ericson2314 3y agoNot direct causation either way, but shared root causes. Labor in short supply -> stronger unions -> better deals for workers Labor in short supply -> more consumption -> more demand -> automation to increase output more valuable Labor in short supply -> automation to reduse labor needed more valuable
- runako 3y ago"Wage increases for full-timers will keep UPS Teamsters the highest paid delivery drivers in the nation, improving their average top rate to $49 per hour." One has to wonder what tech workers could achieve through collective bargaining.
- einpoklum 3y agoDon't worry, that number is a total misrepresentation. Having said that - tech workers could achieve a whole lot through collective _struggle_ (of which bargaining is just a part): * They could prevent mass government surveillance * They could force companies to share their patents and other "intellectual property" with the rest of society, for the benefit of everyone. * They could link up with other workers in areas such as the SF bay to force the government and tech companies to finance construction of public housing and limit rent. * They could mobilize and lead struggles for getting corporate money out of politics (well, at least the direct kind of money in politics). ... and of course take care of their own interests in the form of participation in company decision-making, protection against arbitrary terminations, equitable pay scales, less excessive work hours etc.
- runako 3y ago> Don't worry, that number is a total misrepresentation. I was hoping for more details on the agreement, and it seems you have them. Could you please share the data that leads to this conclusion? Thanks!
- artsytrashcan 3y agoYou don't really need them. An "average top rate of $49/hr" is like saying that the average top salary for a SWE is $500,000/yr. Great number; now, who is actually making it, and how many of them are there? Because this number is supposed to be, somehow, a representation of the gains of a typical worker who is subject to the deal. If it is not representative of such a worker, it's a misrepresentation.
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- kylehotchkiss 3y agoThis is great for UPS! I am always happy when retailers choose them to send packages to me. They never get lost. But what often and increasingly happens to me instead is that they make OnTrac deliver my package to save $.15 cents and then my package gets thrown into a hole in the mail room instead of treated with a once of care. I hope UPS funds these changes via not making their executives richer instead of raising prices across the board.
- einpoklum 3y agoThese agreements are a form of collusion by the teamsters bureaucracy to break the upcoming strike and save the employers' asses. They write: "UPS came dangerously close to putting itself on strike, but we kept firm on our demands." those two pieces of the sentence don't match that well, do they? If the union kept firm, then the strike would have happened. It should read: "UPS came dangerously close to putting itself on strike, but we gave up on the workers' demands." The corrupt union leadership knows that with a strike, there would be even more rank-and-file pressure against a sellout deal, especially if workers organize for collective disruptions while striking. The Teamsters leadership has just done something very similar at Yellow, a few years ago, see coverage here: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/07/25/yell-j25.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/07/25/yell-j25.html
- Seanambers 3y agoGood for them. Real work, deserves real pay.
- chasd00 3y agoIf that's the deal the workers got imagine the deal the teamster boss's got!
- buffington 3y agoI don't know enough about teamster bosses to imagine. Can you give the rest of us an idea of what you're implying?
- someonehere 3y agoOne has to wonder if UPS caved in because they can pass the cost of the agreement on to customers rather than cutting back on executive pay and perks. It’s a victory for the workers, but at a cost to those that need to ship or receive things when we’re already seeing wages not keeping with inflation.
- vGPU 3y agoTo expand on my previous comment: we literally have more job openings than unemployed people, per the latest BLS statistics. And this is a situation that has stayed constant for months. So what happens when demand for workers is higher than the available supply?