5 ms·

While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliabi

by blfr 3y ago

While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliability. Plenty of people also like the touchscreens or seemingly superflous features like Tesla's dog mode. Not gearheads but many normies genuinely do. To the extent that cars did get worse, it was mostly to meet stringent emissions regulations, not computers or capitalism. So yeah, maybe worse for owners but better for people around them. Sadly, it seems like capitalism, yet again, delivered what people really wanted, whether it's shitty toy cars or algorithmic Tik Tok feed. It held a mirror to the society and we don't like what we're seeing.

leptons 3y ago
>Plenty of people also like the touchscreens or seemingly superflous features There was a recent story about how people do not like the touchscreens and tech in their cars. https://www.theverge.com/23801545/car-infotainment-customer-satisifaction-survey-jd-power https://www.theverge.com/23801545/car-infotainment-customer-... Personally I'm not a fan of most of the recent car tech, it's often trying too hard and not making things any easier for people.
- starbugs 3y ago
  I have owned both a shitty beginner car without any extras and two more or less fully equipped ones. I would love a car that does not have a single display and just connects to my phone or pad for setting things up and streaming audio. All controls should be haptic buttons, switches, whatever. Minimal software required to run the car. No internet connection, no subscriptions. The only extras that I would keep are: * Heated seats * Automatic air conditioning * Hill hold control * Automatic transmission (not standard in Europe) That’s it.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    One of the reasons why cars are so much cheaper today is because of electronics. The creation of the "CANbus", two-wire protocol that wraps around the car to communicate, and the movement of all portions of the car to the CANbus, is what has lead to incredible reliability. It turns out that these two wires can be made incredibly reliable, and that communications across it (steering wheel, accelerator, brakes, tire pressure, speeds, A/C, etc. etc.) just makes sense. -------------- All those haptic buttons are "just" CANbus interfaces in practice. Now don't get me wrong, I prefer buttons too. But the next leg of "cheapness" naturally was to shift to an iPad-like capacitive screen, since one-tablet connected to the CANbus is far cheaper (and more reliable) than 20 individual buttons (each of which has a set life and dies on their own). That being said: physical buttons are clearly more intuitive than an iPad-like floating-moving button that is inconsistent and stateful.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      I get your point, but I don’t believe it’s gonna make cars cheaper for me. All the software and connectivity tends to be misused for extracting more money via subscriptions, controlling me and in extreme cases even holding me hostage by updating the software, and making repairs uneconomical by locking me in to one vendor or pairing parts. Not to mention the various privacy and security risks involved with permanent connectivity, escalating software complexity and questionable ownership of the devices built into the car.
  - elwebmaster 3y ago
    If only we could make the car and most of its parts from a material which doesn’t rust, we could use it forever and just keep replacing parts as they break. I would be happy with such a vehicle without any extras except AC.
    - acomjean 3y ago
      I’m old, and live in a snowy salty area. Car body rust is much less a problem that it used to be. I think they’re all galvanized now. Some parts still rust, but having had some 80s vehicles rust out… plus they always tried to sell some “undercoating” to protect that was snake oil as far as I can tell.
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    That's part of why I bought a late CX-5 . While there is a touch display, it can be fully controlled with the physical controls. Also has all the features you mentioned.
  - bamfly 3y ago
    > I would love a car that does not have a single display and just connects to my phone or pad for setting things up and streaming audio. You need a big screen for cameras and such, because visibility in a lot of modern cars is about the same as the driver's seat in a Sherman tank. Unfortunately.
amelius 3y ago
> It held a mirror to the society and we don't like what we're seeing. That mirror is heavily influencing the way we behave.
- Natsu 3y ago
  The biggest fault of capitalism is that it gives people what they want. And we really, really don't like some of the things that some people want.
- leoh 3y ago
  Society, culture, ways we’ve changed the physical world are themselves mirror to merely a part of ourselves. But a very compelling mirror.
dragontamer 3y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck Malibu vs Bel Air crash test. You better believe that modern cars are better, its incredible how _BAD_ cars were before we cared about safety. And that's just safety. Today's cars have better MPG, go faster, have more power, easier to maintain, consistently hit 150,000 miles, etc. etc.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  I have to admit cars have gotten better. I wonder why, since pretty much any other machinery have become worse. Monkey wrenches, kitchen aids, washing machines. Even static tools like frying pans, screw drivers. You name it. But not cars.
  - meheleventyone 3y ago
    Cars are heavily regulated.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      > The car market appears to be as close to perfect competition as we can muster. Theres an enormous amount of big players that all compete and try to outdo one another > Cars are heavily regulated I love that both of these statements, while reflecting opposing ends of political philosophy, are entirely true.
      - meheleventyone 3y ago
        There's only a handful of umbrella companies for most of the brands.
  - anthonypasq 3y ago
    The car market appears to be as close to perfect competition as we can muster. Theres an enormous amount of big players that all compete and try to outdo one another
Ancapistani 3y ago
> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliability. I'm going to have to strongly disagree here, particularly w/r/t reliability. We purchased my wife's vehicle new in 2014. While it's relatively well-regarded and we're happy with it overall, it's been far from trouble-free. We recently replaced the engine due to a well-known mechanic defect - but it was a defect that should have been apparent much earlier than it was, but went unnoticed because of a firmware issue in the ECM. In addition to that, we've had problems with the infotainment system needing to be manually rebooted every month or so in response to increasing "weirdness" over time. The buttons on the steering wheel stopped working consistently in ~2019. There were workaround for a while, but these days all of the buttons on the left side do the same thing (activate the connected phone's microphone), and the ones on the right don't work at all. I've torn the whole steering column and dash apart to verify that it's not a wiring issue; it has to be something wrong with the infotainment system at this point. This wasn't our only experience with newer vehicles. Every one we've ever owned - or just worked on for friends - is plagued by these sorts of electronic "gremlins". They get worse over time, too. Yes, new vehicles are very nice with all the bells and whistles when they're new... but those same features quickly become "just one more thing to break" as the vehicles age. To make matter worse, they're typically very expensive to fix, even if you have the skills, time, and tools to do it yourself. I'm already $1,500 deep into fixing those buttons on the steering wheel, and haven't succeeded yet. I drive a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. Granted, it's "only" 24 years old, but it has been far more reliable than any other vehicle my family has owned since I got it. When I bought it, in ~2011, I was looking for an older model - ideally it would have been a CJ-7, which was made from 1976-1986 - right at your 40 year cutoff. I've replaced several major components, sure - the engine, the entire rear end, the front suspension, etc. - but it has >200k miles on it, and the engine was poorly maintained when I bought the vehicle. What's more, all of that combined cost less than the engine replacement in my wife's 2015 model year vehicle. There's much less to go wrong, too. There's no infotainment system to start acting funny, no backup camera to break, no buttons on the steering wheel to start doing random things they're not supposed to... it's just a vehicle. Complexity is the enemy of reliability, and modern vehicles are very complex. Some of that is due to the market demanding new features. Some of it is due to government regulations. Some of it is just manufacturers using more complex solutions because time marches on. ... I have more to say here, but no time. Maybe I'll come back :)
w4termelon 3y ago
> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago It's interesting that users of US based web-sites (are you an american?) claim that cars are getting better. While people from developing countries say the opposite. Especially, their mechanics. Particularly, they claim that new cars are less reliable, less repairable, and metal is as thick as a can (popular complaint).
hn8305823 3y ago
Kids these days have no idea what cars were like in the 1970's. Starting a cold car in the winter typically went something like this: 1. The door keylock is frozen over with ice. Chisel way at the lock with your metal car key until you can unlock it (15-20 mins) 2. Put key in ignition lock, turn and 3. rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr 4. rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr ... 5. wroorwr-wroorwr-wroo, @#%! 6. get jumper calbes and running car from family member/friend/stranger 7. remove the air filter cover (big round disk on top of the engine back then), and spray starter fluid directly into the carburetor. 7. start car 8. car immediately stalls as soon as you let off the gas 9. start car again, this time hold at 3000 rpm until engine heats up 10. Enjoy the sweet sweet smell of tetraethyl lead in the copious exhaust while you wait 11. Start driving 12. After about 10 mins steam starts to appear under the hood and temperature gauge maxes out as improper water/coolant mix (sometimes just 100% water) boils 13. Wait 30 mins for radiator to cool enough that you can open it safely and put proper mixture of antifreeze/water (you carry several gallons of each in the trunk) Once you do get it going, don't forget to stop at a gas station as your car probably gets less than 12mpg. The full service attendant will check your oil and let you know it's "a quart low". Not bad, it's been two weeks since you last put a quart of oil in.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliability. Plenty of people also like the touchscreens or seemingly superflous features like Tesla's dog mode. Not gearheads but many normies genuinely do. This is because of state (mostly California) and federal laws passed, with the most aggressive taking effect in 2015. The only reason Ford isn't selling you a Shit-Wagon is because they can't, by law. Touchscreens are ass for doing anything while driving. I live in a city and cannot safely change my AC unless I'm at a stoplight. No knobs / only touchscreen is definitely a dealbreaker for my next vehicle, and all research suggests that the "normies" hate them too. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/08/yes-touchscreens-really-are-worse-than-buttons-in-cars-study-finds/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/08/yes-touchscreens-really... https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/good-news-touchscreens-in-cars-are-going-away/246627/page1/ https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/good-news-touchs...

by blfr 3y ago

leptons 3y ago

>Plenty of people also like the touchscreens or seemingly superflous features There was a recent story about how people do not like the touchscreens and tech in their cars. https://www.theverge.com/23801545/car-infotainment-customer-satisifaction-survey-jd-power https://www.theverge.com/23801545/car-infotainment-customer-... Personally I'm not a fan of most of the recent car tech, it's often trying too hard and not making things any easier for people.

starbugs 3y ago
I have owned both a shitty beginner car without any extras and two more or less fully equipped ones. I would love a car that does not have a single display and just connects to my phone or pad for setting things up and streaming audio. All controls should be haptic buttons, switches, whatever. Minimal software required to run the car. No internet connection, no subscriptions. The only extras that I would keep are: * Heated seats * Automatic air conditioning * Hill hold control * Automatic transmission (not standard in Europe) That’s it.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  One of the reasons why cars are so much cheaper today is because of electronics. The creation of the "CANbus", two-wire protocol that wraps around the car to communicate, and the movement of all portions of the car to the CANbus, is what has lead to incredible reliability. It turns out that these two wires can be made incredibly reliable, and that communications across it (steering wheel, accelerator, brakes, tire pressure, speeds, A/C, etc. etc.) just makes sense. -------------- All those haptic buttons are "just" CANbus interfaces in practice. Now don't get me wrong, I prefer buttons too. But the next leg of "cheapness" naturally was to shift to an iPad-like capacitive screen, since one-tablet connected to the CANbus is far cheaper (and more reliable) than 20 individual buttons (each of which has a set life and dies on their own). That being said: physical buttons are clearly more intuitive than an iPad-like floating-moving button that is inconsistent and stateful.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    I get your point, but I don’t believe it’s gonna make cars cheaper for me. All the software and connectivity tends to be misused for extracting more money via subscriptions, controlling me and in extreme cases even holding me hostage by updating the software, and making repairs uneconomical by locking me in to one vendor or pairing parts. Not to mention the various privacy and security risks involved with permanent connectivity, escalating software complexity and questionable ownership of the devices built into the car.
- elwebmaster 3y ago
  If only we could make the car and most of its parts from a material which doesn’t rust, we could use it forever and just keep replacing parts as they break. I would be happy with such a vehicle without any extras except AC.
  - acomjean 3y ago
    I’m old, and live in a snowy salty area. Car body rust is much less a problem that it used to be. I think they’re all galvanized now. Some parts still rust, but having had some 80s vehicles rust out… plus they always tried to sell some “undercoating” to protect that was snake oil as far as I can tell.
- maerF0x0 3y ago
  That's part of why I bought a late CX-5 . While there is a touch display, it can be fully controlled with the physical controls. Also has all the features you mentioned.
- bamfly 3y ago
  > I would love a car that does not have a single display and just connects to my phone or pad for setting things up and streaming audio. You need a big screen for cameras and such, because visibility in a lot of modern cars is about the same as the driver's seat in a Sherman tank. Unfortunately.

amelius 3y ago

> It held a mirror to the society and we don't like what we're seeing. That mirror is heavily influencing the way we behave.

Natsu 3y ago
The biggest fault of capitalism is that it gives people what they want. And we really, really don't like some of the things that some people want.
leoh 3y ago
Society, culture, ways we’ve changed the physical world are themselves mirror to merely a part of ourselves. But a very compelling mirror.

dragontamer 3y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck Malibu vs Bel Air crash test. You better believe that modern cars are better, its incredible how _BAD_ cars were before we cared about safety. And that's just safety. Today's cars have better MPG, go faster, have more power, easier to maintain, consistently hit 150,000 miles, etc. etc.

rightbyte 3y ago
I have to admit cars have gotten better. I wonder why, since pretty much any other machinery have become worse. Monkey wrenches, kitchen aids, washing machines. Even static tools like frying pans, screw drivers. You name it. But not cars.
- meheleventyone 3y ago
  Cars are heavily regulated.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    > The car market appears to be as close to perfect competition as we can muster. Theres an enormous amount of big players that all compete and try to outdo one another > Cars are heavily regulated I love that both of these statements, while reflecting opposing ends of political philosophy, are entirely true.
    - meheleventyone 3y ago
      There's only a handful of umbrella companies for most of the brands.
- anthonypasq 3y ago
  The car market appears to be as close to perfect competition as we can muster. Theres an enormous amount of big players that all compete and try to outdo one another

Ancapistani 3y ago

> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliability. I'm going to have to strongly disagree here, particularly w/r/t reliability. We purchased my wife's vehicle new in 2014. While it's relatively well-regarded and we're happy with it overall, it's been far from trouble-free. We recently replaced the engine due to a well-known mechanic defect - but it was a defect that should have been apparent much earlier than it was, but went unnoticed because of a firmware issue in the ECM. In addition to that, we've had problems with the infotainment system needing to be manually rebooted every month or so in response to increasing "weirdness" over time. The buttons on the steering wheel stopped working consistently in ~2019. There were workaround for a while, but these days all of the buttons on the left side do the same thing (activate the connected phone's microphone), and the ones on the right don't work at all. I've torn the whole steering column and dash apart to verify that it's not a wiring issue; it has to be something wrong with the infotainment system at this point. This wasn't our only experience with newer vehicles. Every one we've ever owned - or just worked on for friends - is plagued by these sorts of electronic "gremlins". They get worse over time, too. Yes, new vehicles are very nice with all the bells and whistles when they're new... but those same features quickly become "just one more thing to break" as the vehicles age. To make matter worse, they're typically very expensive to fix, even if you have the skills, time, and tools to do it yourself. I'm already $1,500 deep into fixing those buttons on the steering wheel, and haven't succeeded yet. I drive a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. Granted, it's "only" 24 years old, but it has been far more reliable than any other vehicle my family has owned since I got it. When I bought it, in ~2011, I was looking for an older model - ideally it would have been a CJ-7, which was made from 1976-1986 - right at your 40 year cutoff. I've replaced several major components, sure - the engine, the entire rear end, the front suspension, etc. - but it has >200k miles on it, and the engine was poorly maintained when I bought the vehicle. What's more, all of that combined cost less than the engine replacement in my wife's 2015 model year vehicle. There's much less to go wrong, too. There's no infotainment system to start acting funny, no backup camera to break, no buttons on the steering wheel to start doing random things they're not supposed to... it's just a vehicle. Complexity is the enemy of reliability, and modern vehicles are very complex. Some of that is due to the market demanding new features. Some of it is due to government regulations. Some of it is just manufacturers using more complex solutions because time marches on. ... I have more to say here, but no time. Maybe I'll come back :)

w4termelon 3y ago

> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago It's interesting that users of US based web-sites (are you an american?) claim that cars are getting better. While people from developing countries say the opposite. Especially, their mechanics. Particularly, they claim that new cars are less reliable, less repairable, and metal is as thick as a can (popular complaint).

hn8305823 3y ago

Kids these days have no idea what cars were like in the 1970's. Starting a cold car in the winter typically went something like this: 1. The door keylock is frozen over with ice. Chisel way at the lock with your metal car key until you can unlock it (15-20 mins) 2. Put key in ignition lock, turn and 3. rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr 4. rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr-rrr ... 5. wroorwr-wroorwr-wroo, @#%! 6. get jumper calbes and running car from family member/friend/stranger 7. remove the air filter cover (big round disk on top of the engine back then), and spray starter fluid directly into the carburetor. 7. start car 8. car immediately stalls as soon as you let off the gas 9. start car again, this time hold at 3000 rpm until engine heats up 10. Enjoy the sweet sweet smell of tetraethyl lead in the copious exhaust while you wait 11. Start driving 12. After about 10 mins steam starts to appear under the hood and temperature gauge maxes out as improper water/coolant mix (sometimes just 100% water) boils 13. Wait 30 mins for radiator to cool enough that you can open it safely and put proper mixture of antifreeze/water (you carry several gallons of each in the trunk) Once you do get it going, don't forget to stop at a gas station as your car probably gets less than 12mpg. The full service attendant will check your oil and let you know it's "a quart low". Not bad, it's been two weeks since you last put a quart of oil in.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> While I dislike the elecronification trend, cars are definitely better than they were 30-40 years ago, in a completely different league when it comes to reliability. Plenty of people also like the touchscreens or seemingly superflous features like Tesla's dog mode. Not gearheads but many normies genuinely do. This is because of state (mostly California) and federal laws passed, with the most aggressive taking effect in 2015. The only reason Ford isn't selling you a Shit-Wagon is because they can't, by law. Touchscreens are ass for doing anything while driving. I live in a city and cannot safely change my AC unless I'm at a stoplight. No knobs / only touchscreen is definitely a dealbreaker for my next vehicle, and all research suggests that the "normies" hate them too. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/08/yes-touchscreens-really-are-worse-than-buttons-in-cars-study-finds/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/08/yes-touchscreens-really... https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/good-news-touchscreens-in-cars-are-going-away/246627/page1/ https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/good-news-touchs...