6 ms·

Situations like these keep bringing me back to the idea that important actions should require an actual, in person, human notary seal. Contract signings, onlin

by j-bos 3y ago

Situations like these keep bringing me back to the idea that important actions should require an actual, in person, human notary seal. Contract signings, online court service, title changes, etc should not be valid without an offline record examiner who affirms under threat of perjury that the parties involved are who they claim (or are claimed to be).

colechristensen 3y ago
Eh, I was forced to have a notary do something and it ended up being an apparently 20 year old dude at a UPS store looking at some papers for a few seconds. Not exactly the high trust exercise it’s made out to be.
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  I suspect this could be improved by, say, installing the same biometric recognition machines they have use for border control at every post office/bank/etc. These machines could attest that you are present and signing something. They would still require some oversight, but one person could oversee many machines. I'm sure this is an unpopular idea on HN, but at least it's a way that our governments could use facial recognition/fingerprints/retina to reduce fraud.
  - colechristensen 3y ago
    Banks actually do a lot of this already, without you necessarily knowing about it when you visit a branch.
- j-bos 3y ago
  It doesn't have to be perfect trust. The benefit is having a third party involved under oath, with a known identity, purpose, and personal liability.
nmfisher 3y ago
Some countries/jurisdictions do exactly that, and trust me, it's a massive pain in the ass. Would you really want to visit a notary just to set up an eBay account? Because that's what you're proposing. The existing system isn't foolproof but, by and large, it works perfectly well. If the transactions in TFA truly were fraudulent, no court is going to hold her liable. The bigger problem here is a US court being happy to issue ex parte judgments for someone who should have been trivially contactable.
- photonbeam 3y ago
  Painful but necessary unless liability is shifted
- Tao3300 3y ago
  > Would you really want to visit a notary just to set up an eBay account? That's a very good idea.
- mhb 3y ago
  There could be other options. Perhaps the notary could choose how she authenticates a person. And perhaps that could be using a clever federated scheme that arises because of this need.
- trvz 3y ago
  > isn't foolproof but [...] it works perfectly well You're not using those words correctly.
- oofoe 3y ago
  Well, acktually... I just tried to set up an eBay account to buy an exhaust part. I created the account, sent the seller a message and twenty minutes later, I got a notification from eBay that I (and anyone from my household) was permanently banned because I was a "threat to the eBay community". I haven't been on eBay for ages, and as far as I know, was certainly never threatening to anyone on or off eBay. Nobody at eBay would tell me what had gone wrong -- in fact, as soon as I asked what the problem was, they said that they had to "end the call now". Maybe if I had signed up in person, they could let me know what crimes I'm supposed to have committed or at least save me a hour by not allowing the signup in the first place.
adanto6840 3y ago
We have e-notaries in Nevada. It requires a webcam/ability to make a video call, and to show your ID in a solid resolution. It's actually probably not the worst thing. I'm sure it happens, and I know the bar for becoming a notary public (official able to notarize documents) isn't that high, but I haven't heard about a ton of fraud where things were falsely notarized. I suppose accessible notarization is a positive thing, at least as long as fraud doesn't become a problem with the system.
Tehnix 3y ago
It’s entirely possible to do this digitally and have it working seamlessly. In Denmark we have a thing called “MitID” (MyID) which is basically a government login and which you can use to sign and also login to all kinds of things that need to confirm your identity (e.g. Phone subscription, taxes, 3DS verification for Credit Card transactions, etc). It’s essentially 2FA, works by the site sending a confirmation to an app on your phone that is behind PIN code. The analog version is a paper slip with 100 lookup codes.
- kredd 3y ago
  That's the thing I don't understand about people who live in the USA and their absolute hatred towards a National ID system. It would be a political nightmare for them to even suggest anything like that. Even their "new" FedNow service is being as governmental overreach for "reasons".
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    Japan’s My Number is also overreach surveillance that many are protesting. Don’t pretend it’s an American thing
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - whaleofatw2022 3y ago
    Most non-it people I know who are opposed to FedNow are the kinds of folks who get a lot of 'gifts' that they conveniently get around reporting, alongside a CPA they always owe favors to. I am against government overreach yet these people really seem to want to change my mind.
- smaudet 3y ago
  And then...your govt login is stolen and you are back to square one with "identity theft". National ID systems are such nonsense it is appalling there are people stupid enough to think this is a Good Thing. Easy is NOT always better. The best things in life are definitely not free.

by j-bos 3y ago

colechristensen 3y ago

Eh, I was forced to have a notary do something and it ended up being an apparently 20 year old dude at a UPS store looking at some papers for a few seconds. Not exactly the high trust exercise it’s made out to be.

hamandcheese 3y ago
I suspect this could be improved by, say, installing the same biometric recognition machines they have use for border control at every post office/bank/etc. These machines could attest that you are present and signing something. They would still require some oversight, but one person could oversee many machines. I'm sure this is an unpopular idea on HN, but at least it's a way that our governments could use facial recognition/fingerprints/retina to reduce fraud.
- colechristensen 3y ago
  Banks actually do a lot of this already, without you necessarily knowing about it when you visit a branch.
j-bos 3y ago
It doesn't have to be perfect trust. The benefit is having a third party involved under oath, with a known identity, purpose, and personal liability.

nmfisher 3y ago

Some countries/jurisdictions do exactly that, and trust me, it's a massive pain in the ass. Would you really want to visit a notary just to set up an eBay account? Because that's what you're proposing. The existing system isn't foolproof but, by and large, it works perfectly well. If the transactions in TFA truly were fraudulent, no court is going to hold her liable. The bigger problem here is a US court being happy to issue ex parte judgments for someone who should have been trivially contactable.

photonbeam 3y ago
Painful but necessary unless liability is shifted
Tao3300 3y ago
> Would you really want to visit a notary just to set up an eBay account? That's a very good idea.
mhb 3y ago
There could be other options. Perhaps the notary could choose how she authenticates a person. And perhaps that could be using a clever federated scheme that arises because of this need.
trvz 3y ago
> isn't foolproof but [...] it works perfectly well You're not using those words correctly.
oofoe 3y ago
Well, acktually... I just tried to set up an eBay account to buy an exhaust part. I created the account, sent the seller a message and twenty minutes later, I got a notification from eBay that I (and anyone from my household) was permanently banned because I was a "threat to the eBay community". I haven't been on eBay for ages, and as far as I know, was certainly never threatening to anyone on or off eBay. Nobody at eBay would tell me what had gone wrong -- in fact, as soon as I asked what the problem was, they said that they had to "end the call now". Maybe if I had signed up in person, they could let me know what crimes I'm supposed to have committed or at least save me a hour by not allowing the signup in the first place.

adanto6840 3y ago

We have e-notaries in Nevada. It requires a webcam/ability to make a video call, and to show your ID in a solid resolution. It's actually probably not the worst thing. I'm sure it happens, and I know the bar for becoming a notary public (official able to notarize documents) isn't that high, but I haven't heard about a ton of fraud where things were falsely notarized. I suppose accessible notarization is a positive thing, at least as long as fraud doesn't become a problem with the system.

Tehnix 3y ago

It’s entirely possible to do this digitally and have it working seamlessly. In Denmark we have a thing called “MitID” (MyID) which is basically a government login and which you can use to sign and also login to all kinds of things that need to confirm your identity (e.g. Phone subscription, taxes, 3DS verification for Credit Card transactions, etc). It’s essentially 2FA, works by the site sending a confirmation to an app on your phone that is behind PIN code. The analog version is a paper slip with 100 lookup codes.

kredd 3y ago
That's the thing I don't understand about people who live in the USA and their absolute hatred towards a National ID system. It would be a political nightmare for them to even suggest anything like that. Even their "new" FedNow service is being as governmental overreach for "reasons".
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  Japan’s My Number is also overreach surveillance that many are protesting. Don’t pretend it’s an American thing
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- whaleofatw2022 3y ago
  Most non-it people I know who are opposed to FedNow are the kinds of folks who get a lot of 'gifts' that they conveniently get around reporting, alongside a CPA they always owe favors to. I am against government overreach yet these people really seem to want to change my mind.
smaudet 3y ago
And then...your govt login is stolen and you are back to square one with "identity theft". National ID systems are such nonsense it is appalling there are people stupid enough to think this is a Good Thing. Easy is NOT always better. The best things in life are definitely not free.